Sorcery

[Mänwe]

Originally posted by Raynor

This disregards the p.o.v. given in the letter #151:

The following passage you have provided does not come within letter 151, I think you mean to say letter 155. However I disregard this passage to some extent because it was part of a draft that was not sent. Could we not say he reconsidered what he had written, why else would be not have sent it?

Originally posted by Raynor

Quote:
The only difference I think therefore is this ‘latent’ distinction given, that ‘magia’ is white magic; used by “good”, and ‘goetia’ for evil purposes and thus used by “evil”.

I disagree again, they are both rather neutral both sides use both, same source:

This is however again part of a letter that was not sent. That is extremely poor grounds to base an arguement upon. But I think the only other option would be to concede to your point. There is very limited material for us to go upon.

The reason I take my stance in the way I have, is because there is no actual 'published' evidence for what Tolkien thought, so as has been done I have fallen back upon modern definition, using a little of Tolkien's, this being the greek etymology of the word "goeteia". I apologise if I am being difficult.

Your first two quotes regarding references to 'religion' I am unsure on. Namely because I am unfamiliar with the words 'Lor' and 'Lawks' as elluding to anything religious. Could you elaborate on those for me?

Moving onto your first quote regarding Tolkien's insight, I completely misread what he was stating here when I used it as evidence against religion. Your bringing it to my attention the second time has alerted me to it. Thank you! I must concede.

~~~~~~~

Originally posted by Raynor

Rising in title does not equal holding the highest rank after Sauron. In the Hunt for the ring, the nazguls are presente as "his mightiest servants", who "were by far the most powerful of his servants".

I do not think I am saying that. He rose in favour, it was this that gave him the 'key' to obtaining the title of 'Mouth of Sauron'. Although on second thoughts the passage in the "Black Gate is Open", it does seem rather self proclaimed. Your thoughts? (Though I would go for the 'brain' over 'brawn' on most occasions, the Nazgul being the 'brawn'.) Certainly it was his ambition that made him the more powerful though? I therefore refer back to my section B(ii).

Again I am sorry but I am unfamiliar with another term you have used, "wikie"?

~~~~~~~

To coin a cricket phrase, again I must concede another 'soft wicket', in regards to your rebuke on 'machinery' being a surrogate and not subspecies.

And yes those two points regarding 'magic' of men, and the decline of 'magic' are a little contradictory, though really they should be kept as two seperate views. Besides what is a good piece of arguement if you do not attempt to trip yourself?

[Boromir88]

Raynor, you've sucked me in...

You will find no disagreement with me that the Nazgul were more deadly and powerful servants than the Mouth of Sauron, you quite clearly show this...but I disagree with this assumption:

I disagree; in Sauon's hierarchy, I believe that one's power is what defines one's status.

I disagree with this, because Sauron wasn't much of a leader or a fighter. As Denethor observes:

"Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling."~The Siege of Gondor

Sauron wasn't the military commander type...in fact Sauron doesn't have a very good track record when it comes to him fighting in general. The two times he does engage in a battle he loses. As Denethor observes he much prefers to sit back, use others as his weapons, and take a back stage approach. So, I disagree with the assumption that being more powerful means you are higher-ranked in Sauron's hierarchy.

I think it has more to do with are you the person Sauron wants for the job. We know that unlike Morgoth, Sauron loved order and co-ordination...these virtues he had all the way until his end:

"He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)"~Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

To Sauron it's not about how powerful one is, or how deadly one is, he is a lover of order and co-ordination. Which is why we are led to believe that the Mouth of Sauron will get Orthanc once Sauron finishes off these 'Men.'

'But they [Men] shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.'~The Black Gate Opens

As Grishnakh shows us ("Saruman is a fool: a dirty, treacherous fool; but the Eye is on him." The Uruk-hai), and here again with the Mouth, Sauron knew fully aware of what Saruman was up to. He knew Saruman was planning to betray him, but he wanted to get as much use out of him as possible, and so when this War is over, he boots Saruman and places someone he feels he can trust and who can do the job.

We know that the Mouth fits both of these qualifiers. He knew much of Sauron's mind and grew in Sauron's favour. Now the Ringwraiths were complete slaves to Sauron's will, so he could trust them too, but I think it's clear that the Mouth of Sauron can be just as much trusted as the Nazgul.

1. You mention The Mouth of Sauron had forgotten his name...this is to emphasize the fact that The Mouth had lost his true identity. As you point out, names were very important, and with a name, comes the identity you have the person you are. Well, people who have fallen completely to Sauron's dominion have no memory of their name.

Examples: The Nazgul are not named, the leader is given some titles...but none are his names. And it's also debateable as to whether Khamul was actually the name of one of the Nazgul, or whether that was just a title he was given. Anyway, point being, the Nazgul are all unnamed because they don't have an identity, they don't know their past life, they are complete slaves to Sauron's will.

Gollum, Gollum still has a bit of hope left for his redemption because he can remember his name, and Frodo brings this out. There was a small corner of Gollum's mind that still remained uncorrupted by the Ring, and this was the ability of Gollum to recognize his name...Smeagol, and at least have an identity of his past life. However, once Gollum's chance of redemption is gone, he is now completely Gollum, he has forgotten his true name.

Same here for the Mouth of Sauron, to emphasize that symbolism that he has lost his past history, his identity, he can no longer remember his name. Just like the Nazgul, he is completely under Sauron's domination. In fact, the Mouth is actually compared to looking like a Ringwraith, only as Manwe points out he was still a living man.

2. The Mouth of Sauron would be a person Sauron would want for the job. He's sent the Nazgul to occupy Dol Guldur before...we know he doesn't trust orcs (I mean who would)...Saruman doesn't even trust orcs, Merry and Pippin note that he had "Men guards." Sauron is able to trust Men more than orcs, especially I would think a Man that has forgotten his identity and in pretty much all ways besides the fact that he's living, he resembles a Nazgul.

Also, again the Mouth was more cruel than any orc (what does that tell us about his authoritative capability?) and he knew much of Sauron's mind...implying he had probably held council with Sauron on other occasions.

Now begs the question who is the higher-ranked...The Mouth of Sauron or The Witch-King.

Well the Witch-King commands Sauron's armies...so as far as militarily goes, he is probably at the top of the ladder.

But as far as policy, government runnings in Barad-dur, the Mouth of Sauron would be above in Rank compared to the Witch-King...because he is the Lieutenant of Barad-dur. He was going to take Saruman's place and run over Orthanc after Sauron finished with his war. And I can say this with certainty, because The Mouth knew much about Sauron (meaning he probably knew how Sauron felt about Saruman), and we also know that Sauron loved order and co-ordination. He would be able to rule more effectively his 'New World under his domain" with someone like the Mouth Ruling over Orthanc.

Again going back to the Mouth of Sauron as being Sauron's herald...Now I think that a lot of people really don't understand what a true herald was, as a herald simply wasn't a trumpeter or harbinger.

As noted before Elrond was Gil-galad's herald, and it was a position that had quite a bit of power along with a list of duties. The herald was an Officer of Arms, and his duties included both diplomatic and military affairs. Diplomatic in the regards that he would deliver messages from the King, he could make proclomations, he acted as an ambassador, as well as serving as the armorial expert on the Battlefield...meaning he was greatly involved with the armory and issued certain regimental colors, the coat-of-arms, recorder of genealogies...among other things. The herald (especially the herald of a King) was someone who was very high up in status as well as high up in the ranks. He really isn't anything like the modern day conception of someone who presides over tournaments and acts as a superintendant of ceremonies.

Basically, the Mouth was someone of importance when it came to policy, and the dealings of Barad-dur...where the Witch-King was Sauron's servant and commander on the battlefield. As far as positioning and ranking would go, it would make sense for Sauron to give his second-in-command the tower of Orthanc to rule over and run things...especially to someone like the Mouth of Sauron.

Who was able to grow in Sauron's favour.
Who would have provided better control and order to Sauron's 'new kingdom.'
Who was more cruel than any orc.
Who was his Lieutenant of Barad-dur...which to me suggests this is a higher position than the Commander of the army.

The Nazgul may have been more powerful than the Mouth of Sauron, but I don't think Sauron's hierarchy is based upon how powerful one is. It is about who can be the most effective in running, controlling, and co-ordination.

[Mänwe]

Originally posted by Raynor,

I believe these are the two mentionings to Eru that Tolkien reffered to in his BBC interview.

Really! Well thank you for including them in your post otherwise I would never have known, I am surprised. Another point I must concede.

Originally posted by Raynor,

I agree; moreover, I believe that all of Sauron's terms would be just another trick of his;

True, though I was thinking along the lines of himself (Mouth of Sauron) giving himself this title, thus sounding, 'self proclaimed'.

Thank you also for alerting me to other 'nicknames' you have for these characters, no doubt I shall see them all used before the end...

What are your thoughts as 'song' as 'magic'?

~~~~~~~

Originally posted by Boromir88

...he boots Saruman and places someone he feels he can trust and who can do the job.

What makes you think it would be as easy as that? We are aware of the limitations 'set' upon the Istari in regards to their 'power', seeing as Saruman had fallen into corruption, would he not find it just as easy to break this rule. And challenge Sauron directly with the power he has. Or rather had till his defeat at Helm's Deep. (i.e. had he triumphed, how soon would he have moved?)

I believe my post concurs with yours on the view that Sauron 'praised' you for who you are. Repetition of the quote;

“…because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron.’” – (The Black Gate Opens, Return of the King)

'cunning' being the operative word here. I would also like to highlight a point you made Boromir88 in your superb post, that the Mouth of Sauron was 'Second-in-Command'.

Here I think the hammer strikes true, while the Witch-King (perhaps Raynor you might call him Kammy? ) would have control of the army on the battlefield. I do not think he would disobey an 'order' (this order albeit coming from Sauron) from the Mouth of Sauron. Thus I propose the 'rank' and 'power' go to Mouthie.

Because, as you have pointed out, Sauron loved order, hierachical order, and it seems some of his orders come through the Mouth of Sauron, thus this pattern of command would continue.

Originally posted by Boromir88

It is about who can be the most effective in running, controlling, and co-ordination.

Are these not traits for someone who is powerfull?

(I am warning myself here, we are now in the realms of speculation and although a rather stimulating debate of opinion, no real evidence is being used.)

(I would further add, that both your posting has been sublime, I wait to tribute you again, since the last time I did, however it seems I must "spread some more reputation around elsewhere" first.)

[Saurreg]

I agree with Mänwë's conclusion. This has been a stimulating topic but actual evidence on what Tolkien really intended sorcery in his world to be is unfortunately lacking.

If we have established that sorcery was the manipulation of spirits, we can only suggest how it was done and who could have done it. We do not even know where the original molested spirits came from. lol.

Kudos to Boromir88, Radagastly LMP, Raynor and Mänwë. You'll are be getting reps from me by providing all the quotes and extractions from Tolkien's letters and masterfully expounding your points. If the main purpose of the books discussion is to ask the questions (sorry about the oath bit) and learn, this thread delivered.

One thing I would like to highlight is that Sauron was actually successful in battles before. He captured Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion in the FA and then the stronghold of Eregion. We know not much on how he performed the second deed but in the first, he used (aha!) sorcery.

EDIT: Not directed at me, but I think a Song was the medium of spell in magia and that the act of singing it, was incantation for the particular spell to come into effect.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sauron wasn't the military commander type

Let me get this straight: are you arguing that:
a) he was letting the war planning to others, because he wasn’t a military time? If anything, he acts in a totalitarian manner, trying to control everything and everywhere, so I don’t think this could be the case.

b) he was trying to reach his goals through… what? Political means? I certainly disagree with that. In the Silmarillion, Of the enemies, it is stated that he “walked behind [Melkor] on the same ruinous path down into the Void”. This is further reinforced in Myths Transformed, HoME X, where, in Notes on the motives in the Silmarillion, it is stated that: “Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism).”. Furthermore, in the Orcs chapter of that work, we find a note that says: “But there remained one flaw in his control, inevitable. In the kingdom of hate and fear, the strongest thing is hate. All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some 'enemy' to prevent them from slaying one another”. It’s a dog-eat-dog out there. On the general level, Sauron has a growing propensity towards destruction; this is certainly an adoration of power [his master’s power is what drove in the beginning to adore him] and this is most likely reflected in his organisational structure – after all, organisations reflect certain philosophies, and this is one of destruction and of perpetual violence – I have no doubt that the big fish eats the small one.

As Denethor observes he much prefers to sit back, use others as his weapons, and take a back stage approach.

Taking the front row isn’t a prerequisite of a militaristic point of view. Just like Melkor, he keeps his behind safe, fearing for his bodily form, but that in no way means hinders his war agenda.

So, I disagree with the assumption that being more powerful means you are higher-ranked in Sauron's hierarchy.

In the light of my previously stated arguments, I consider this a non-sequitur.

these virtues he had all the way until his end

I disagree; those were the virtues he has in the beginning; in the end, as the Myths state, he went balistic.

but I think it's clear that the Mouth of Sauron can be just as much trusted as the Nazgul.

From what is that clear? If anything, he mishandled the parley with his enemies and displayed fear; worthy of contempt, and if you ask me, Sauron would have been aware of those shortcomings. Would the mouth be trusted to bring back the ring should it have been he that would have found it? I doubt that, he was a man, as you point out yourself, and therefore _very_ vulnerable to the ring – but the witch-king would bring the ring back to Sauron, as we know from Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring. Comparing the trustworthiness of these two doesn’t favor your candidate.

they don't know their past life

Why would you say that?

Also, again the Mouth was more cruel than any orc (what does that tell us about his authoritative capability?)

To me, not much. And it seems to me that you are now arguing that “martial” qualities do equal authority.

He was going to take Saruman's place and run over Orthanc after Sauron finished with his war.

We can argue this only post-factum; I see no reason to infer that should the withc-king be live, matters would be the same.

Again going back to the Mouth of Sauron as being Sauron's herald...

As stated before, this is not a job he seems to be up to.

Who was able to grow in Sauron's favour.

I believe that even some orcs or trolls could rise up the ranks; none of these instances equal second to Sauron

which to me suggests this is a higher position than the Commander of the army.

In my opinion, that is just speculation.

[Boromir88]

Let me get this straight: are you arguing that:
a) he was letting the war planning to others, because he wasn’t a military time? If anything, he acts in a totalitarian manner, trying to control everything and everywhere, so I don’t think this could be the case.

I never argued this stance...I said he wasn't the military commander type...meaning he wasn't the type to be at the front and lead armies. He was the type as Denethor observed to sit back and stay in his own walls.

b) he was trying to reach his goals through… what? Political means? I certainly disagree with that.

Again when did I say this?

Taking the front row isn’t a prerequisite of a militaristic point of view. Just like Melkor, he keeps his behind safe, fearing for his bodily form, but that in no way means hinders his war agenda.

I never said anything differently.

I disagree; those were the virtues he has in the beginning; in the end, as the Myths state, he went balistic.

I would like proof that Sauron had gone 'ballistic.' He still kept the very virtues of order and co-ordination. And he never reached Morgoth's stage of chaos nor the stage of nihilism:

"Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.~Morgoth's Ring

From what is that clear? If anything, he mishandled the parley with his enemies and displayed fear; worthy of contempt, and if you ask me, Sauron would have been aware of those shortcomings.

Actually the parley was false. How do we know the parley was false, because it was already a planned trap:

He [Mouth of Sauron] gave a great cry, and turned, leaped upon his steed, and with his company galloped madly back to the Cirith Gorgor. But as they went his soldiers blew their horns in signal long arranged; and even before they came to the gate Sauron sprang his trap.~Black Gate Opens

Why would you say that?

I gave 3 reasonable examples (Gollum, The Nazgul, and The Mouth of Sauron) that show the importance of names. Your name is your identity (example the Ents, their names are the stories of their life as Treebeard explains)...Names are extremely important, they identify who you are. The Nazgul were not named, as their wills were completely bound to Sauron's will...just as the Mouth of Sauron had forgotten his name, he doesn't have an identity, only except that he is under Sauron's dominion. Just like when Gollum's hope of redemption was in the fact that he had been able to remember his name...Smeagol. If one loses their name, they lose their identity, it's a sign that they don't know who they are and are completely under the dominion of someone else. (In this case Sauron).

I doubt that, he was a man, as you point out yourself, and therefore _very_ vulnerable to the ring – but the witch-king would bring the ring back to Sauron, as we know from Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring. Comparing the trustworthiness of these two doesn’t favor your candidate.

I would like to see how you doubt that? I have shown that the Mouth was under Sauron's will because he has forgotten his own name...Tolkien also compares him to a Ringwraith...and just because somebody is a man doesn't mean they are automatically corrupted and tempted by the Ring.

We can argue this only post-factum; I see no reason to infer that should the withc-king be live, matters would be the same.

Again all this is, is inferring, where I have shown a quote showing that The Mouth of Sauron was going to rule over Orthanc.

As stated before, this is not a job he seems to be up to.

Why not? Because he fled from Gandalf? So what, a lot of people fled from Gandalf...The Witch-King fled from Gandalf, the Witch-King fled from Glorfindel, I would flee from Gandalf. If anything the Nazgul proved to be more incompetant at doing their duty than The Mouth of Sauron.

In my opinion, that is just speculation.

I would like to say why you think it is simply speculation? Both the WK and the Mouth had seperate duties...it is like the Sauron-Gothmog relationship. Gothmog led Morgoth's armies, and Sauron acted more like an administrator and was second to Morgoth. Typically, the military leader, does just that he leads the military, but doesn't serve for administrative purposes. Now there are occasions where of course one person can be in charge of both the military and government duties...Though in this system we had the Witch-King who led the military and The Mouth who took care of administrative duties in Barad-dur, and of course both were under Sauron's jurisdiction as he ruled over both of them.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I said he wasn't the military commander type...meaning he wasn't the type to be at the front and lead armies.

I am afraid you are restricting the meaning of military commander to those who are ahead of the armies – and in your next paragraph you seem to agree with me that this is wrong.

I would like proof that Sauron had gone 'ballistic.'

I believe I already gave it; he “became infected with lust for destruction”; – now that is just the opposite of order and organisation in terms of purposes, wouldn’t you say? Sure, this didn’t reach Melkor’s level, but Melkor is cathegory of his own. As it stands, Sauron is the most destructive force in Middle Earth – by purpose and alignment (hehe, RPG games) of inner power and of his armies. He may keep order and coordination, but that is something that is necessary for attaining a goal, which is destructive and evil in its nature; whatever kind of order evil will achieve, it is something so corrupt, that it wouldn’t fit the term anymore – because, as Tolkien states in the continuation of that quote, that that lust for destruction must end in nihilism.

Actually the parley was false.

I am quite certain that Sauron would have been happy to accept the surrender of his enemies in the terms decided by him. Anyway, anyone at war prepares for an unsuccessful parley, that doesn’t mean the parley itself was false.

I gave 3 reasonable examples (Gollum, The Nazgul, and The Mouth of Sauron) that show the importance of names. Your name is your identity (example the Ents, their names are the stories of their life as Treebeard explains)...Names are extremely important, they identify who you are. The Nazgul were not named, as their wills were completely bound to Sauron's will...just as the Mouth of Sauron had forgotten his name, he doesn't have an identity, only except that he is under Sauron's dominion. Just like when Gollum's hope of redemption was in the fact that he had been able to remember his name...Smeagol. If one loses their name, they lose their identity, it's a sign that they don't know who they are and are completely under the dominion of someone else. (In this case Sauron).

I am afraid you misunderstood my question; I was reffering to your supposition that the nazgul don’t remembe their past life; perhaps you could clarify that idea.

Tolkien also compares him to a Ringwraith

Yes, phisically.

and just because somebody is a man doesn't mean they are automatically corrupted and tempted by the Ring

Why? Concerning the temptation, Men were the easiest to corrupt even with the Nine rings, let alone with the one ring. Concerning corruption, although I didn’t originally argue along that line, he is already open to the corruption of Sauron’s power, which is, in fact, of the same nature with the ring’s power .

Again all this is, is inferring, where I have shown a quote showing that The Mouth of Sauron was going to rule over Orthanc.

I thought you dismissed the parley as being “for real”. In a certain sense, I agree with that, since it is stated in The Black Gate opens “Sauron had already laid his plans, and he had a mind first to play these mice cruelly before he struck to kill”. I believe we can view all of the mouth’s statement in that light: he was playing with their minds.

Why not? Because he fled from Gandalf?

Well, he had the hobbit items snatched from under his nose; he soiled his cloth out of fear of Aragorn when he invoked embassador protection. All in all, I fail to see how these admirable deeds surpass the 42 _centuries_ of service of the witch king.

I would like to say why you think it is simply speculation?

Well, because we have no proof in that direction. If anything, in wartime, people with military duties have a higher standing than those with administrative (more in the realm of "civil") duties.