Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Aiwendil]

My apologies again for the terrible state of neglect in which I've left this project. Here are my comments on the remainder of the original Beren and Luthien changes.

BL-SL-06: I’m inclined to think that the discrepancy between the Lay and QS77 can be put down to compression.

BL-RG-40: Let’s retain the plural:

BL-RG-40 {Thu's messengers}[Sauron’s heralds].

BL-RG-41: Without the “thou”, the sentence is no longer grammatical. I suggest:

BL-RG-41 {when} [with] {Thu thou}[Sauron] {vanquishedst}[vanquished], what need

BL-RG-42: I suppose this is justifiable.

BL-RG-45: I think we must look for a better solution to this line. The best case would be that we could keep the first line and find a new rhyme for “new”. Let’s see:

BL-RG-45I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
{to Morgoth }from[Sauron, Morgoth’s servant true]{forest-haunting Thu}.

Not great, I know. Perhaps there’s another rhyme for “new” that could be used.

BL-RG-48: I suppose “Gods” is all right in this instance.

BL-EX-12: I like the idea of incorporating details from the synopsis, but I think this sentence has become a little unwieldy. I suggest:

But Thingol learned that Lúthien had journeyed far from Doriath, for messages came secretly from Celegorm, as has been told, saying that Felagund was dead, and Beren was dead, BL-EX-12{but Lúthien was in Nargothrond, and that Celegorm would wed her.} and <Lay; Synopsis V that Celegorm {will}would make himself king of Narog{,}[;] and while telling him that Lúthien {is}was safe in Nargothrond and treating for her hand, {hints}it hinted that she {will}would not return: it also {warns}warned him to trouble not the matter of the Silmarils.>

BL-EX-16.3: Unfortunately, I have none of the VT and I have not seen Eldarin Hands – but I’ll take your word for it. I think that the splicing has left an ungrammatical sentence though, so I’d suggest:

BL-EX-16.3{And}<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘My hand holds the jewel’, Beren said and> {Beren}[he] put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. BL-EX-16.5<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘Alas!’ said Beren, ‘it is in the other hand, but that is not here.’>

I have yet to look carefully over the changes Findegil proposed in the last two posts. As for introducing some details of the hunting of the wolf from BoLT - I was going to suggest that myself!

I will, I hope, be able to go back over the unresolved points and look for better solutions to some lines this week.

[Findegil]

Okay, your suggestions are good. Even BL-RG-45. All other ryhmings I could find do not seem to be much better:

BL-RG-45 I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
to Morgoth from [Sauron's ]forest-haunting {Thu}[crew].

or with a gramatic liberty:

BL-RG-45 I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
to Morgoth from [Sauron's, ]{forest-}haunting {Thu}[forests through].

I will stopp now before you leap up and run screaming from the screen, when I try to find a sense full sentence for the ryhming of "new" - "clow".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

BL-EX-11.8: This is good; I would make one small change:

Not long before {they}Beren and Lúthien came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why she {did so}used his tongue, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful.

BL-EX-16.2: I think you missed an alteration to past tense here:

<LT In great gloom {do}did they find King {Tinwelint}[Thingol], yet suddenly {is}was his sorrow melted to tears of gladness

BL-EX-17.3: There is a missing Tinwelint > Thingol here:

‘No need is there thereof, for behold that jewel is even now nigh to thy caverns,’ and he made clear to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] that that beast that ravaged his land was none other than {Karkaras}[Carcharoth],

BL-EX-17.5: I'm not sure about this:

a mighty weapon {captured}[profen] in battle with the distant Orcs

I assume you mean "proven" - but I'm not sure whether it is no longer valid for the Elves to have "captured" a weapon in battle with the Orcs. I suppose that in light of the changes in the characterization of Thingol's realm, the change might be justified.

BL-EX-18:

Mablung took out Beren’s right hand – his kamba, still holding the Silmaril and by its protection unmortified and clean.

The explanatory interjection "his kamba" looks to me like it's out of place in a narrative, as opposed to an essay. I would delete it.

Similarly, the note concerning the meaning of Mablung's name feels out of place. Perhaps (and I'm surprised I'm suggesting this) a footnote would be a better place for this information.

BL-EX-18.3:

Then {holding it out }he said: ‘Behold O King,’

Why is "holding it out" deleted?

BL-EX-18.7: I would make this:

Therefore now they raised Beren gently up and tended him and washed him, and he breathed, but he spoke not nor opened his eyes, and when the sun {arose}[set] and they had rested a little they bore him as softly as might be upon a bier of boughs back through the woodlands

It seems to me that this:

They bore back Beren Camlost son of Barahir upon a bier of branches with Huan the wolfhound at his side; and night fell ere they returned to Menegroth.

Is a redundant restatement of what has just been inserted from LT. I would delete it.

[Findegil]

To all i do not comment I agree.

BL-EX-17.5 I hesitated long about this. Is it think able that a Elf used a Orc weapon, because it seems mightier? I think not. But on the other hand, Orcs often used waepons from their foes, so this might be a weapon captured from by a orc-captina from some Dwarf in distance day and then captured by Mablung in a later battle. And since in the end our principle is to let a story stand if it can not be unproven, we should let the captured stand.

BL-EX-18 A FOOTNOTE?
I nearly had fall out of my chair when I read that. But if you find it fitting to bring in the information in that way, I am with you.


BL-EX-18.3: Either we have to delet "holding it out" or "took it" one sentence later, or at least so I think. And since the first is an an addition I found it more apropirate to delet this, even if in its proper place it was the first time Mablung touched the Silmaril.


BL-EX-18.7: Agreed to the first change.

Yes, you are right. But I think we should still ceary Huan back with Beren and also I would like to take up the name Camlost and this heritage:

BL-EX-18.7 <LT Therefore now they raised Beren <moved Camlost son of Barahir> gently up and tended him and washed him, and he breathed, but he spoke not nor opened his eyes, and when the sun {arose}[set] and they had rested a little they bore him as softly as might be upon a bier of boughs <moved with Huan the wolfhound at his side> back through the woodlands; and nigh {midday}[midnight] they drew near the homes of the folk again, and then they were deadly weary, and Beren had not moved nor spoken, but groaned thrice.>{They bore back Beren Camlost son of Barahir upon a bier of branches with Huan the wolfhound at his side; and night fell ere they returned to Menegroth.} At the feet of ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

BL-EX-18.3: Ah, I understand now. I agree that "holding it out" should go.

BL-EX-18.7: This looks good to me.

I've been working on some of the spots that remain problematic, but without much success so far. I did come up with something for BL-EX-10, though it still needs some work:

But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
‘This I say to Celegorm the fell,
by the sight that is given me in this hour,
by neither thine nor any power
shall thy kin the Silmarils gain
before the End; all in vain
is your oath. And this we seek
shall be delivered ’neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour all
of Feanor’s sons, and to other care
Luthien’s great bride-price bear.’

[Findegil]

BL-EX-10: That is definitly much better then my own try. I find it impresive. What do you don't like?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Looking back on it, I suppose it's not that bad. I do worry a bit that it may be too great a deviation from the base text that is being versified.

The one line that still bothers me is:

shall be delivered ’neath the triple peak,

. . . which sounds to my ear very forced.

I should have some time this weekend to work on other problematic spots.