Gondor, Rohan and Lorien

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I've always wondered what the difference with Rivendell is.

It is only that men fear powerful women...

[narfforc]

I'm sorry, wasn't Lorien ruled jointly by a Lord and Lady, or has Celeborn vanished?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I'm sorry, wasn't Lorien ruled jointly by a Lord and Lady, or has Celeborn vanished?

That actually brought an interesting point to my mind: Does Celeborn appear in any of the rohanian fairy stories?

(Just for the sake of clarity, my point was that Galadriel was a personification of the Golden wood and an inevitable person in the tales, but Celeborn...?)

[narfforc]

Galadriel may wear the Ring, but she says: For the Lord of the Galahrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. It has always bugged me the way that Celeborn has been made to look somehow inferior to Galadriel, just because she has the ring. These two are equals. At their parting in Lorien Galadriel tells the Fellowship that the gifts are from both of them, later upon meeting Eomer, Aragorn says: But we have passed through Lothlorien, and the gifts and favour of the Lady go with us. This I think is a mistake by Tolkien, it should have been: the gifts and favour of the Lord and Lady go with us. It seems that everyone that passes through Lorien is somehow blind or ignorant of the fact that there is also a very powerful Lord there also, he seems to have been pushed into the: Oh he's only there to father Celebrian mode. I am sure that men knew of Celeborn, he had not always been at Lorien, he had dwelt in Doriath, Lindon and Eregion, to these places men and dwarves had access at times, I feel his existance would have been known. When the Rohirrim, whether in the time Eorl or Theoden speak of the Lady of The Golden Wood, I think they speak almost in semi-reverence, similar to calling on Elbereth without having to mention Manwe.

There is no doubt that Galadriel is very powerful, and it is not all the doing of Nenya. I would like to add that not all men fear powerful women, anymore than all women love only powerful men.

[Aiwendil]

Narfforc wrote:

At their parting in Lorien Galadriel tells the Fellowship that the gifts are from both of them, later upon meeting Eomer, Aragorn says: But we have passed through Lothlorien, and the gifts and favour of the Lady go with us. This I think is a mistake by Tolkien, it should have been: the gifts and favour of the Lord and Lady go with us.

Is it really a mistake? I'm wary of saying "Tolkien got it wrong" when one finds a piece of evidence that doesn't support one's own view.

Certainly, it is true that Galadriel calls Celeborn "the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth". But it's also impossible to ignore the fact that, at least to a great majority of readers, Celeborn simply does not come across that way.

Either:
1. Tolkien failed to adequately characterize Celeborn in the story or
2. Celeborn is not as wise or insightful as Galadriel.

But I don't think that it's necessarily a reflection on any faults of Celeborn if one views Galadriel as the more important of the pair - for Galadriel is said (in a text found in UT) to have been the greatest of the Eldar in Aman, save only Feanor.

[Boromir88]

Aiwenedil, yes the UT does say that about Galadriel, but it appears she evolved, or became that way in Tolkien's story. Galadriel and Celeborn was a changing story in Tolkien's thoughts, and it appears that speaking strictly of the UT I see no reason to dispute this:

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.~UT, Galadriel and Celeborn

However:

There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.~Preface to Galadriel and Celeborn

The Galadriel and Celeborn story went under several 'refashionings' and their characters became more important later on in Tolkien's mind. So, I think when we look at The Silmarillion or LOTR there may be inconsistancies, because the story of Galadriel and Celeborn constantly underwent changes.

So, I think eventually in Tolkien's latest writings Galadriel did become (to him) the greatest of the Noldor, save for Feanor. However, I think if we look back and the Silmarillion than I think we can question whether Galadriel was the greatest save for Feanor. She clearly was strong and powerful in the Silmarillion, but she wasn't as powerful as what she would eventually become in Tolkien's latest writings on the subject.

narfforc, I do think Celeborn goes under-appreciated, at times I think he's even forgotten. I would believe save for Cirdan he is one of the oldest Elves on Middle-earth during the Third Age, he's got to be right up there with Galadriel I'm thinking. But, I think we can't take Galadriel saying that he was the wisest of the Elves in Middle-earth. Tolkien's characters are liable to be mis-informed or wrong, and not necessarily in line with what he thought. I think Galadriel was just sweet-talking him or buliding up his confidence. There's no doubt he is one of the wisest, and oldest, during this time, but the wisest...I don't know about that.

[drigel]

Yes, I think it comes down to a matter of understanding. What do Men do when they don't understand something?

So, Rivendell was at least a place that Men could understand and knew about.

I always looked at that somewhat the same, but a little different. Rivendell was the home of Elrond Half Elven. More ties and more responsibilities with mortals. But I always thought that Rivendell, as the third age drew on, had less official contact with Gondor, leading to none at all. So, as far as I read it:
Rivendell - friendly (Last Homely House, etc), run by an Elf Loremaster, but a hidden location (in general terms, especially by the later 3rd age).
Lorien - not hidden, but avoided. Im sure men of Gondor and Rohan (and other inhabitants) knew exactly where the physical location of Lorien was. A golden forest would be hard to miss. But, it was an alien (mallorn) place, and an elvish kingdom ruled by a Queen\sorceress etc. Travellers would turn away as soon as they saw it on the horizon (throwing salt over their should as the did). Plus from a Rohirric POV, Lorien was on the other side of Fangorn, another ancient wood, not enchanted but just as dangerous and avoided.

I think we can question whether Galadriel was the greatest save for Feanor

Yup. But I always reconcile that quote (and it's contradictions) in UT by interpreting that as meaning the greatest Noldo still living by the 3rd age (but isnt Elrond in that category as well? At least technically?). Traditionally, I would think that there were a few Noldor buried and under the sea considered greater. But perhaps, if she was the greatest save for Feanor, it may be possible that her role in ME was such that it wasnt demonstrated so readily, or obviously. She was as ambitious, but mabye not as mission driven, so her deeds werent as documented in song.

[narfforc]

Yes I think that you are right Aiwendil, Tolkien fails to give us the real Celeborn in LotR. I am not saying Celeborn we get is without fault, this can be seen in his rebuffle of Gimli and his second guessing of Gandalfs reasonings, what I am saying is that we don't see the Celeborn of History, The Great Warrior-lord and leader that he is, and I think this is mainly because all eyes have been drawn towards a ring. If the historical Celeborn is shown, then it is in the older tales before any rings are made, and we can only see that now, many years after LotR was first published, furthermore at what point did this historical Celeborn come into existance:

1. Was Celeborn already in the mind of Tolkien before LotR was published

2. Is the Celeborn of Sil/UT a storyline added after Tolkien included him in LotR.

Tolkien continued to work on The Silmarillion after LotR so this could be possible.

Cross posted with Boromir88.

P.S Yes they say love is blind Boromir88