The Lord of the Bible?

[Raynor]

As I previously quoted from the Atrabeth and Myths Transformed, Tolkien's world is actually good, unless evil is stirred [after all, Eru's secret fire burns at the heart of it].

Concerning the timing of Ea and our world, he noted this in letter #211:

I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dur and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.

*I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.

Originally Posted by Lal

Ah, but this Light would be, as Tolkien said to Milton Waldman:

I am genuinly puzzled about what you are trying to say. [If you are reffering to the dedication of his myths to Englad, he admited this was something he attempted ("once upon a time") and amusingly asks the reader not to laugh at that - and ends by calling the whole enterprise as "absurd". But we have been through this already.]

[Raynor]

Sorry for double posting, things are moving at a fast pace here:

But in Christianity its the actions of the first two humans which causes evil to enter the world; if they had resisted then we must presume it would not have happened.

What about the snake? Was he wholly good? And isn't evil something of a moral quality? If so, how could Adam and Eve create it? How could they possibly amend God's creation in such a fundamental way? At most, they made an evil choice, possibly the first (most likely the second, considering the snake), but that is a far cry from amending God's creation.

Whereas in Arda, the peoples (peoples because I'm including Elves and Dwarves) are blameless.

How blameless were the Men that succumbed to Melkor's temptations? In the begining, he offered them gifts - and Eru promised them he would take care of them, should they call on to him - I really have to quote this, its an all time favorite:

Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you

Was the temptation higher than they could handle - such as Frodo's temptation? In fact, they knew of Eru's power and assistance, but still fail to call on Him, they didn't mind about him - I have little if any doubt Eru would have kicked Melkor from one end of Ea to the other, should he have been supplicated. But no, Men failed and fell - in the end, to the glory of Eru.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Sorry for double posting, things are moving at a fast pace here:
What about the snake? Was he wholly good? And isn't evil something of a moral quality? If so, how could Adam and Eve create it? How could they possibly amend God's creation in such a fundamental way? At most, they made an evil choice, possibly the first (most likely the second, considering the snake), but that is a far cry from amending God's creation.

Was the temptation higher than they could handle - such as Frodo's temptation? In fact, they knew of Eru's power and assistance, but still fail to call on Him, they didn't mind about him - I have little if any doubt Eru would have kicked Melkor from one end of Ea to the other, should he have been supplicated. But no, Men failed and fell - in the end, to the glory of Eru.

Who knew of it? Men in LotR didn't know of it, it's only in the Athrabeth, in this it's stated as a kind of tradition, not as a current 'faith', there's no hint that the Men in LotR knew of it. It's up to these Men to work out what's right and wrong for themselves; and indeed part of the 'mission' of the Istari is to guide them (but not push them) towards good choices.

I'd like to see something that proves Eru would have kicked Melkor from one end of Ea to the other had Men called on him. It took Eru long enough to do something about him when the Elves sought help - and then he has simply been chained in the void, not destroyed, and his works go on right into the 4th age and beyond. "No-one can change the music in my despite" is what Eru says, so the fate of Arda is set out in the Music and it can't be altered; Melkor is chained in the Void until the end comes, though I've no doubt he might get a whupping at that point!

Back to Genesis...the serpent is not evil, the serpent simply suggests to Adam and Eve another way of doing things - the point about The Fall is surely that it is all Adam and Eve's choice. They can say no and simply obey (or trust), but they don't. Evil was only a potential possibility (as in Pandora's Box) and it was their actions alone which released it.

Originally Posted by Alatar

Anyway, I do like, as you state, that in Tolkien's world not everything is born with stain (there's a nappy joke in there somewhere), but with the choice to embrace or resist it. That may be why a 'works' theology (as opposed to grace) is popular even outside of Middle Earth - you feel like you're doing something, whether adding negative or positive chits, but that, in your beginning, you start out with a zero balance and not in debt.

That's the way i look at the world and morality anyway - that everyone must work towards doing good and doing the right thing ('moral credit at hole in the wall', as Radiohead say) and people are born good. I think in the Christian sense, the world itself is not evil, but people are born right from the beginning with the 'evil stain' and it must be fought against - Original Sin. In Tolkien's world, the world itself is evil, but people are not necessarily born that way, and they must work to avoid falling into the trap that the very world itself presents. This actually fits better with the world we see in Tolkien where we can even have evil trees, whereas the Christian view focusses on people not on flora and fauna.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Who knew of it? Men in LotR didn't know of it, it's only in the Athrabeth, in this it's stated as a kind of tradition, not as a current 'faith', there's no hint that the Men in LotR knew of it. It's up to these Men to work out what's right and wrong for themselves; and indeed part of the 'mission' of the Istari is to guide them (but not push them) towards good choices.

This is a loooooong quote from letter #156:

But in a kind of Noachian situation the small party of the Faithful in Numenor, who had refused to take pan in the rebellion (though many of them had been sacrificed in the Temple by the Sauronians) escaped in Nine Ships under the leadership of Elendil and his sons, and established a kind of diminished memory of Numenor in Exile on the coasts of Middle-earth – inheriting the hatred of Sauron, the friendship of the Elves, the knowledge of the True God, and (less happily) the yearning for longevity, and the habit of embalming and the building of splendid tombs – their only 'hallows': or almost so. But the 'hallow' of God and the Mountain had perished, and there was no real substitute. Also when the 'Kings' came to an end there was no equivalent to a 'priesthood': the two being identical in Numenorean ideas. So while God (Eru) was a datum of good Numenorean philosophy, and a prime fact in their conception of history he had at the time of the War of the Ring no worship and no hallowed place. And that kind of negative truth was characteristic of the West, and all the area under Numenorean influence: the refusal to worship any 'creature', and above all no 'dark lord' or satanic demon, Sauron, or any other, was almost as far as they got. They had (I imagine) no petitionary prayers to God ; but preserved the vestige of thanksgiving. (Those under special Elvish influence might call on the angelic powers for help in immediate peril or fear of evil enemies. ) It later appears that there had been a 'hallow' on Mindolluin, only approachable by the King, where he had anciently offered thanks and praise on behalf of his people; but it had been forgotten. It was re-entered by Aragorn, and there he found a sapling of the White Tree, and replanted it in the Court of the Fountain. It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings (of whom Luthien the Blessed Elf-maiden was a foremother) the worship of God would be renewed, and His Name (or title) be again more often heard. But there would be no temple of the True God while Numenorean influence lasted.

It does speak for itself, doesn't it?

It took Eru long enough to do something about him when the Elves sought help - and then he has simply been chained in the void, not destroyed,

Then again, "the indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story" (cf letter #211), so your alternative isn't appropiate.

the serpent is not evil, the serpent simply suggests to Adam and Eve another way of doing things - the point about The Fall is surely that it is all Adam and Eve's choice

The serpent was not evil? He "beguiled" Eve, inducing rebellion against God's words. And I think it is interesting to see his words:

Originally Posted by Genesis 3:5

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Since they are so similar to Sauron's:

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

Alas, for the weakness of the great! For a mighty king is Gil-galad, and wise in all lore is Master Elrond, and yet they will not aid me in my labours. Can it be that they do not desire to see other lands become as blissful as their own? But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressea, nay even as Valinor? And since you have not returned thither, as you might, I perceive that you love this Middle-earth, as do I. Is it not then our task to labour together for its enrichment, and for the raising of all the Elven-kindreds that wander here untaught to the height of that power and knowledge which those have who are beyond the Sea?

If the serpent was not evil, how come he was punished then?

Originally Posted by Alatar

Anyway, the answer regarding the Hobbits, whether there was a Flood, or whether the flood was local or happened before the Shirefolk existed is that, I think, there's a mention that in Frodo's time some of the Hobbits began getting a little bigger.

There is a quote, I can't remember the source, where Tolkien states that they will slowly diminish in numbers, getting very stressed with finding food and forgetting their lore. Rather depressing.