Heroes: LOTR vs Rocky Balboa - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Bêthberry · 08-30-2006, 08:16 AM

Well, this is a case where knowledge from outside the story now influences my reading of Rocky. I'm not sure in this case if davem would agree it should ruin the story.

I've heard that in his first film Stallone was the kind of superhero that our Lord of the Rings heroes are not and that makes any kind of comparison between the ring and the Ring just fall flat for me.

Lalwendë · 08-30-2006, 08:28 AM

Don't superheroes all wear tight-fitting masks and lycra unitards and wear their underpants over their kecks? Sounds a bit dodgy to me.

narfforc · 08-30-2006, 09:21 AM

Aren't they those Wrestlers from WWE.con. I am sorry for seeing the fun element here Mansun, but the Rocky films are hardly the ones to use when speaking of an Hero, there are many war films, where groups of soldiers set of in Fellowship to fight the enemy, maybe that is what you are asking, can we see the Lord of the Rings type Hero in other places.

08-30-2006, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

Aren't they those Wrestlers from WWE.con. I am sorry for seeing the fun element here Mansun, but the Rocky films are hardly the ones to use when speaking of an Hero, there are many war films, where groups of soldiers set of in Fellowship to fight the enemy, maybe that is what you are asking, can we see the Lord of the Rings type Hero in other places.

I thought the point of this particular forum was for fun &/or to be obscure? Or are you still upset over the fact I ridiculed your post about how a video game links with the scene between Gandalf & the Witch-King?

Balboa is just an example, since he was rated the 7th most popular hero of all time in a poll - can you scratch your head & think of others? By that, I don't mean Hulk Hogan, but rather characters such as Hercules, Conan, James Bond?

08-30-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Don't superheroes all wear tight-fitting masks and lycra unitards and wear their underpants over their kecks? Sounds a bit dodgy to me.

I can just imagine Gandalf the White in his tights?!?

Or maybe The Saucepan Man?

narfforc · 08-31-2006, 12:55 AM

I am not still upset Mansun, that was then this is now, your ridiculing of my post has no relevence here (unless it is a feeble attempt to goad me). I am unaware of this poll you talk of, unless it was in America, which then would not suprise me to learn that Rocky is a big hero. For myself I have fought in real wars and have served with real heroes, both British and American, so my view on this is rather tainted by realism. To add further, I also boxed, winning army titles at three weights, so I even know how hard that can be. I have real boxers who I idolised, Marvin Hagler and Rocky Marciano, both I believe from Brockton. I just cannot look at an actor who is acting out a role in the relative safety of a studio and think of him as a hero. The idea of Rocky isn't even original, it is based on the life of Chuck Wepner the Bayonne Bleeder, who never won anything, but he did serve as a marine, something Stallone ran away from.

Maybe it would be a good idea to publish the results of the poll, and see whether any of them would fit the image of any hero from LotR

08-31-2006, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

Maybe it would be a good idea to publish the results of the poll, and see whether any of them would fit the image of any hero from LotR

American Film Institute's list of top screen heroes and villians:-

Rounding out the top 10 list of heroes, in order: Rick Blaine (Humphrey Bogart), Casablanca; Will Kane (Gary Cooper), High Noon; Clarice Starling (Jodie Foster), The Silence of the Lambs; ROCKY BALBOA (Sylvester Stallone), Rocky; Ellen Ripley (Sigourney Weaver), Aliens; George Bailey (James Stewart), It's a Wonderful Life; and TE Lawrence (Peter O'Toole), Lawrence of Arabia.

The rest of the top 10 villains, in order: the Wicked Witch of the West (Margaret Hamilton), The Wizard of Oz; Nurse Ratched (Louise Fletcher), One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest; Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), It's a Wonderful Life; Alex Forrest (Glenn Close), Fatal Attraction; Phyllis Dietrichson (Barbara Stanwyck), Double Indemnity; Regan MacNeil (Linda Blair), The Exorcist; and the Queen (voiced by Lucille LaVerne), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-31-2006, 09:51 AM

What, no mention of Scooby Doo?

08-31-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

What, no mention of Scooby Doo?

He probably makes the list later on. What suprised me is that James Bond is not in there (Sean Connery). If The Hobbit was ever made into a film, young Bilbo probably could have got into the top 10.

ninja91 · 08-31-2006, 09:52 AM

The Rocky films were not good after the first one. We only thought the one with Ivan Drago was good was because a Russian got beat in the ring during the Red Scare. If you watch it today... god, it is terrible.

09-23-2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja91

The Rocky films were not good after the first one. We only thought the one with Ivan Drago was good was because a Russian got beat in the ring during the Red Scare. If you watch it today... god, it is terrible.

The Rocky films will probably be remembered for longer than the LOTR films. Even the earliest film is still going strong.

narfforc · 08-31-2006, 09:56 AM

Thanks Mansun, the villians are interesting. The Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz (1939) is killed by Dorothy, The parallel between this and Eowyn killing The Witch-king is quite striking. In The Oz film The Witch says: I'm melting, I'm melting, who would have thought a little girl could do this to me, she then disappears and all that is left is her raggy clothes. The Witch-king shares a similar fate, leaving behind nothing but rags. I wonder if The Witch-king thought along the same lines, that a girl could kill him, when he believed none of the great warriors could.

P.S Ninja91 is that why Rocky has come out of retirement now, the red scare is over, will he be fighting Osama bin Laden next.

Lalwendë · 08-31-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

American Film Institute's list of top screen heroes and villians:-

Rounding out the top 10 list of heroes, in order: Rick Blaine (Humphrey Bogart), Casablanca; Will Kane (Gary Cooper), High Noon; Clarice Starling (Jodie Foster), The Silence of the Lambs; ROCKY BALBOA (Sylvester Stallone), Rocky; Ellen Ripley (Sigourney Weaver), Aliens; George Bailey (James Stewart), It's a Wonderful Life; and TE Lawrence (Peter O'Toole), Lawrence of Arabia.

The rest of the top 10 villains, in order: the Wicked Witch of the West (Margaret Hamilton), The Wizard of Oz; Nurse Ratched (Louise Fletcher), One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest; Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), It's a Wonderful Life; Alex Forrest (Glenn Close), Fatal Attraction; Phyllis Dietrichson (Barbara Stanwyck), Double Indemnity; Regan MacNeil (Linda Blair), The Exorcist; and the Queen (voiced by Lucille LaVerne), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

That's an interesting list! Hmm, two female heroes and six female villains?

I wonder what it might have brought up in the UK? It's a fair bet it would have included characters from The Great Escape and Dambusters! I'm sure that Frodo would have made it into that list too, and possibly Luke Skywalker or Han Solo, and maybe my own fave superhero, Doctor Who.

Celuien · 08-31-2006, 05:40 PM

Rocky is a hero. After all, there's a statue of him. And half the city was very recently shut down for filming the latest installment to his life story.

But in all seriousness, Rocky is a different type of hero from Frodo or Sam. Rocky is a wish-fulfillment symbol - the underdog who gets his shot and against all odds, gaining self-respect in the process. I think most people have dreamt about their big chance. Rocky is the one who is given that chance. That idea has a powerful allure for 'escapist' movie audiences who have the chance to vicariously live out their fantasies through Rocky.

The heroes of the LoTR are in an entirely different category. Fighting for the greater good, as Selmo puts it, and at great personal cost. Obviously the more noble effort, but maybe not quite as mass appealing as the fantasy of going from rags to riches or from obscurity to fame as Rocky did. Given the choice, how would we choose to act? I would hope I would be Frodo, but if the question were to move from the theoretical and abstract safety of an Internet discussion forum to a concrete decision, I honestly don't know with certainty.

Sardy · 09-23-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

American Film Institute's list of top screen heroes and villians:-

Rounding out the top 10 list of heroes, in order: Rick Blaine (Humphrey Bogart), Casablanca; Will Kane (Gary Cooper), High Noon; Clarice Starling (Jodie Foster), The Silence of the Lambs; ROCKY BALBOA (Sylvester Stallone), Rocky; Ellen Ripley (Sigourney Weaver), Aliens; George Bailey (James Stewart), It's a Wonderful Life; and TE Lawrence (Peter O'Toole), Lawrence of Arabia.

The rest of the top 10 villains, in order: the Wicked Witch of the West (Margaret Hamilton), The Wizard of Oz; Nurse Ratched (Louise Fletcher), One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest; Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), It's a Wonderful Life; Alex Forrest (Glenn Close), Fatal Attraction; Phyllis Dietrichson (Barbara Stanwyck), Double Indemnity; Regan MacNeil (Linda Blair), The Exorcist; and the Queen (voiced by Lucille LaVerne), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

No Darth Vader? Han Solo? (or Luke Skywalker?)

08-30-2006, 08:16 AM	#1
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Well, this is a case where knowledge from outside the story now influences my reading of Rocky. I'm not sure in this case if davem would agree it should ruin the story. I've heard that in his first film Stallone was the kind of superhero that our Lord of the Rings heroes are not and that makes any kind of comparison between the ring and the Ring just fall flat for me. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

08-30-2006, 08:28 AM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Don't superheroes all wear tight-fitting masks and lycra unitards and wear their underpants over their kecks? Sounds a bit dodgy to me. __________________ Gordon's alive!

08-30-2006, 09:21 AM	#3
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Aren't they those Wrestlers from WWE.con. I am sorry for seeing the fun element here Mansun, but the Rocky films are hardly the ones to use when speaking of an Hero, there are many war films, where groups of soldiers set of in Fellowship to fight the enemy, maybe that is what you are asking, can we see the Lord of the Rings type Hero in other places. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 08-30-2006 at 09:27 AM.

08-31-2006, 12:55 AM	#6
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	I am not still upset Mansun, that was then this is now, your ridiculing of my post has no relevence here (unless it is a feeble attempt to goad me). I am unaware of this poll you talk of, unless it was in America, which then would not suprise me to learn that Rocky is a big hero. For myself I have fought in real wars and have served with real heroes, both British and American, so my view on this is rather tainted by realism. To add further, I also boxed, winning army titles at three weights, so I even know how hard that can be. I have real boxers who I idolised, Marvin Hagler and Rocky Marciano, both I believe from Brockton. I just cannot look at an actor who is acting out a role in the relative safety of a studio and think of him as a hero. The idea of Rocky isn't even original, it is based on the life of Chuck Wepner the Bayonne Bleeder, who never won anything, but he did serve as a marine, something Stallone ran away from. Maybe it would be a good idea to publish the results of the poll, and see whether any of them would fit the image of any hero from LotR __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

08-31-2006, 09:51 AM	#8
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	What, no mention of Scooby Doo? __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

08-31-2006, 09:56 AM	#12
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Thanks Mansun, the villians are interesting. The Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz (1939) is killed by Dorothy, The parallel between this and Eowyn killing The Witch-king is quite striking. In The Oz film The Witch says: I'm melting, I'm melting, who would have thought a little girl could do this to me, she then disappears and all that is left is her raggy clothes. The Witch-king shares a similar fate, leaving behind nothing but rags. I wonder if The Witch-king thought along the same lines, that a girl could kill him, when he believed none of the great warriors could. P.S Ninja91 is that why Rocky has come out of retirement now, the red scare is over, will he be fighting Osama bin Laden next. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 08-31-2006 at 09:59 AM.

08-31-2006, 05:40 PM	#14
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	Rocky is a hero. After all, there's a statue of him. And half the city was very recently shut down for filming the latest installment to his life story. But in all seriousness, Rocky is a different type of hero from Frodo or Sam. Rocky is a wish-fulfillment symbol - the underdog who gets his shot and against all odds, gaining self-respect in the process. I think most people have dreamt about their big chance. Rocky is the one who is given that chance. That idea has a powerful allure for 'escapist' movie audiences who have the chance to vicariously live out their fantasies through Rocky. The heroes of the LoTR are in an entirely different category. Fighting for the greater good, as Selmo puts it, and at great personal cost. Obviously the more noble effort, but maybe not quite as mass appealing as the fantasy of going from rags to riches or from obscurity to fame as Rocky did. Given the choice, how would we choose to act? I would hope I would be Frodo, but if the question were to move from the theoretical and abstract safety of an Internet discussion forum to a concrete decision, I honestly don't know with certainty. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. Last edited by Celuien; 08-31-2006 at 07:22 PM. Reason: fixing broken URL

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