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#1 |
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I think Christopher Lee as Saruman refers to the Balrog as Satan in the movie. PJ certainly went for that image in the first movie, although not necessarily Tolkien.
Just a few more examples as to why I think of Elrond as a Christ-like figure. He is a master of healing, & has command of nature in his valley. One might almost say, he can perform miracles to an extent. He is also a true symbol for Good in Middle-Earth, lord of the elves. |
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#2 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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And while Elrond is a lord of Elves, he isn't the lord of them. There were many, especially in the early Ages. This is a race meant to embody Goodness beyond the world of men, in general terms. Do you think Tolkien would have made so many Christ figures, or do you think maybe that he merely took the greatest qualities of Goodness he could think of, not necessarily of Christness as such, but, being Christian and with very strong beliefs of right and wrong, good and evil, qualities of Christ, if you follow me, and gave them to the firstborn in that way? And for those who disdain of talk of religious allegory, there appears to me to be no difference in taking a fictional archetype versus taking a biblical one and applying it to your story. Having Christ figures doesn't necessarily mean intentionally having Christ.
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peace
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#3 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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![]() It was John Howe's Balrog, if it had been Ted Nasmith's then it would have been wingless. Has Alan Lee ever illustrated the Balrog? Anyway. If we wanted a Miltonic Satan in the books, I fear we'd be looking for some time, as Tolkien more or less paints his uber-Bad Guys (like Morgoth and Sauron, the Orcs) as just that, bad. I think he has to, as this ups the stakes in the struggles against them, and also enables him to get away with writing of a lot of Orcs being slaughtered! A Miltonic Satan, however, has to be a bit seductive and gain the sympathies of the reader. If there's any character who comes close, for me it would be Saruman - and I would say that if we had to draw parallels with any vaguely Biblical figure for Saruman, then this is who he 'fits' best. However, you do have to have some degree of interest in Saruman, an appreciation that he wasn't necessarily evil but was just doing things differently (even if this 'differently' was not within his job description when sent to Middle Earth) - i.e. be 'taken in' by him to some extent, like I am! You have to find Saruman as a character attractive, and the fact that a lot (most?) of readers don't find him so, suggests that he is not a Miltonic Satan to most readers. I suppose the other factor that's needed to 'see' characters as Satan or Lucifer is to accept the Ainur as 'angels' and I hold that they aren't, they are 'gods' wiht much greater power than 'angels', and they are also not sexless like angels. But I'll leave that thorny topic there. ![]() But for something controversial, then let's look at the meaning of Lucifer - Morning Star or Bringer of Light. Who would that be in Quenya? Varda? ![]()
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Gordon's alive!
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#4 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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As pointed previously, Melkor represents the fallen angel of the Bible - the most important difference being that Melkor introduces evil before the creation is completed (as noted by Tolkien in letter #212: "in this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken ").
Concerning Gandalf being Christ, Tolkien stated: Quote:
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#5 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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"So that was it, nice to know; now I understand it - peculiar the professor didn't tell it straight, isn't it? Went on to write an ambiguous story around that thing he wanted to tell us about, funny. Happily we can solve these meanings this nicely anyhow. Well, differences? Surely, but they can be accounted for and explained away as poetic license or something, you know those artists, always taking liberties and muddying the waters to make the reader struggle a bit before the final solution that is given to the gifteds and laborious enough; after all, we know now what he meant..." ??? ![]() ![]() ![]()
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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#6 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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![]() Davem says that the equivalent to Lucifer in Quenya would actually be Earendil. So.... What now, eh? Has this got anything to do with the price of fish? Actually, I think Tolkien can't have been unaware that the Morning Star and Bringer of Light was also known as Lucifer! But did he aim to turn this on its head a bit by giving a good character's name that meaning?
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Gordon's alive!
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#7 | |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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#8 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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I think Tolkien is using the latter 'myth'. not the former. So I will make myself clearer to Lalwende in future before I let her post anything ![]() |
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#9 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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The problem with this kind of linking is how to distinguish which are the most likely and the most unlikely and what principles to use in making the associations. For example, Elrond is a father and official leader of the Elves. He has fought in wars. These are traits not shared with Jesus. At least, unless we grant credence to the Da Vinci Code. ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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