The Voice of Saruman

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Letter #210

Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.

The impression that I have from this letter is that Saruman's Voice is simply a corruption of something common/natural - logic argumentation (although used with a _lot_ of skill).

[MatthewM]

Interesting points you both make. Thanks for that quote from The Letters, I haven't read that one yet. So it seems to me that Saruman's voice was simply skill and status, in a way.

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Raynor

The impression that I have from this letter is that Saruman's Voice is simply a corruption of something common/natural - logic argumentation (although used with a _lot_ of skill).

I beg to differ with Boromir, but Saruman's Voice isn't from the Enemy. Neither Morgoth nor Sauron gave Saruman that skill; maybe it came from his being a Maia/Istari. And in lieu with Raynor, I agree that the Voice is a natural skill of Saruman's and that he may choose (either conciously or unconciously) to either use it for evil or for good.

Which makes me ask these: Is Saruman's turning to evil done unconciously or not? Did his envy of Gandalf pervert him without his knowing or noticing it--and is his wisdom not that great for him to detect he was becoming evil?

[Boromir88]

I beg to differ with Boromir, but Saruman's Voice isn't from the Enemy.

Just to point out I didn't say Saruman got his voice from 'The Enemy' (as inh e got it from Sauron or Morgoth). But was showing that Saruman's voice fit perfectly with Galadriel's description of 'the deceits of the Enemy.' As Saruman's voice was quite deceitful at times in order to get what he wanted.

[Raynor]

Is Saruman's turning to evil done unconciously or not?

Saruman followed the path of expediency that tempted Aule, Melkor and Sauron - and, like the later two, he fell and failed to repent

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, i, Myths Transformed, HoME X

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness [of Melkor]. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him.

On top of that, he was also an incarnate, which emphasisez his weakness

Originally Posted by Letter #181

But since in the view of this tale & mythology Power – when it dominates or seeks to dominate other wills and minds (except by the assent of their reason) – is evil, these 'wizards' were incarnated in the life-forms of Middle-earth, and so suffered the pains both of mind and body. They were also, for the same reason, thus involved in the peril of the incarnate: the possibility of 'fall', of sin, if you will. The chief form this would take with them would be impatience, leading to the desire to force others to their own good ends, and so inevitably at last to mere desire to make their own wills effective by any means. To this evil Saruman succumbed. Gandalf did not.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Just to point out I didn't say Saruman got his voice from 'The Enemy' (as inh e got it from Sauron or Morgoth). But was showing that Saruman's voice fit perfectly with Galadriel's description of 'the deceits of the Enemy.' As Saruman's voice was quite deceitful at times in order to get what he wanted.

I think that Saruman was using his voice in much the same way that Galadriel did, but with different purposes (just as say one person may own a gun to deal with a rat problem, another may own one for nefarious purposes). It is quite possibly all down to sanwe, the skill of thought transference/telepathy which peoples in Arda possess but are usually unaware of. Elves are skilled in using this, as would be Maiar such as Gandalf and Saruman, and probably Aragorn, brought up in Rivendell; part of that skill also involves the ability to 'close' the mind to unwanted intrusion or influence, and we can assume that most peoples in Middle-earth would be entirely unaware of the need to protect themselves from such a skill! Long-ish explanation for anyone who's not yet heard any ramblings on this topic.

If we look at the instances where Saruman is speaking we can see how he manages to get inside the minds of certain listeners, usually Men, whereas those with 'sanwe awareness' are more able to shake off the suggestions in Saruman's words. Saruman then goes on to have his dispute with Gandalf where their minds are 'striving' against each others for mastery; this is not just a wizardly staring match, they are conversing through sanwe and Gandalf was likely trying to get the better of Saruman's mind - or trying to stop Saruman from finding out too much!

We can see Galadriel using sanwe too, when Boromir is unnerved by having certain thoughts intrude into his mind as though she is speaking to him. Is this deceitful of Galadriel to do this? It is just an inherent skill that some are more aware of than others, and which some are more able to use. Just that they may not always be using it for the 'right' reasons. And its worth noting that probably the most skilled user of sanwe seems to have been Sauron.

Good point about Galadriel's words on 'magic' though - as this would indeed be one of those things that Sam might think of as 'magic' but which was just an inherent but usually dormant skill.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

this is not just a wizardly staring match, they are conversing through sanwe and Gandalf was likely trying to get the better of Saruman's mind - or trying to stop Saruman from finding out too much

I beg to differ - mastering another mind is impossible even for the most powerful ainu; it constitutes an unat, something impossible:

Originally Posted by Osanwe-kenta

There is indeed no axan [law, rule, commandment] that the barrier should not be forced, for it is únat, a thing impossible to be or to be done, and the greater the force exerted, the greater the resistance of the unwill. But it is an axan universal that none shall directly by force or indirectly by fraud take from another what he has a right to hold and keep as his own.

Melkor repudiated all axani. He would also abolish (for himself) all únati if he could. Indeed in his beginning and the days of his great might the most ruinous of his violences came from his endeavour so to order Eä that there were no limits or obstacles to his will. But this he could not do. The únati remained, a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and His invincibility, a reminder also of the co-existence with himself of other beings (equal in descent if not in power) impregnable by force. From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage.