More! More! More!

[Boromir88]

Great posts, Lal and Kuru.

On the other hand, if I were satisfied with just these glimpses I probably would not be here right now.

Neither would I.

And it's indeed these glimpses that make LOTR so attracting. We have the main story of this quest motif, filled with stories, songs, and poems of the past. And I think what makes it magical, at least for me, is that it left me with a sense of wanting more. It feuled me into reading more. It was sort of like someone was teasing me feeling...you know, like here's a little bit, but you never got enough.

I think with the Silmarillion it was harder to do that...because with the Silmarillion, he had to write something from the beginning, there were no 'back stories.' And he wasn't able to create this simplistic 'quest/journey' as he puts it, because it all had to tie in and progress to LOTR.

That's also kind of why we had Christopher too, or why Christopher did what he did. In the Foreward to Book of Lost Tales, he talks about all his long hours of putting The Silmarillion together, and all his fathers other writings, was for those who were like him and felt the desire to want more and know more.

I never got that feeling of wanting more from the Hobbit, however.

That's interesting...I wouldn't know though, I think that's because I read LOTR first, then I went to The Hobbit.

But it is interesting, why Tolkien abandoned the attempt to edit the Sil for publication? Was it a classic case of scholarly procrastination - a touch of the Casaubons - or did Allen & Unwin not encourage him as much as they could have done, that the work would have a ready market, which might have put him off?

It was probably a bunch of stuff. He knew that revising the Silmarillion to fit with LOTR was going to be a daunting task, especially since many of his stories were written at different times. Also, he seemed to have been a sickly guy and would remark a lot about falling 'under the weather' and his health began to decline in his later ages...and this really starts effecting him a lot around the time he just kind of let the Silmarillion go:

I never recovered form the confusion of my affairs when I had a terrible bout of fibrositis and neuritis of the arm last October.~Letter 22, (1952)

…my wife’s in creasing ill-health ..has involved me in various distresses since November…In addition the ill will of Mordor decreed that I should lose most of the vital Christmas vacation being ill.~Letter 133 (1953)

In 1959 he retires, and is followed by more health problems:

I am glad to say that we are both rather better this year….I had some treatment last September, and have been free and easy on the legs since, though my usual lumbago afflicted me in June.~Letter 236 (1961)

Then once he reaches the age of 70, in Letters 245, 247, 248, and 250, he talks about his rheumatism in his right arm and hand, and he becomes as 'unbendable as an Ent.'

I don't think he ever lost love for his stories, or a desire to write more. Because in Letter 250, he talks about his health, but rather jokingly compares his 'old/unbendable bones' to the Ents. But, I think getting the Silmarillion ready and out there to get published, compounded with his ailing health, and answering his Letters, he just got more or less tired and bogged down.

(Cross-posted with Squatter)

[alatar]

This post may or may not make a point, obscure or otherwise; be warned.

• Anyone with access to time-travel technology please take a laptop back to the good Professor, one preferably with speak/write and word processing software installed. Ever think what we would have today if we weren't limited by the physical writing process?

• Maybe, after devoting much of his life to Middle Earth, Tolkien wanted to get away from fulfilling the insatiable fan requests and simply just write greeting card text.

• Do we truly want more, or is it that we just want that feeling back that we had when we first read LotR, when we were innocent and Middle Earth was brand new? Is this feeling nothing more than the adrenaline rush that we got when we first walked across Middle Earth with Frodo? Does that not mean that the amount of text that is or could have been provided meaningless as it would never bring back that chemical rush of the 'first time?' Surely if the appendices or the Silmarillion were rubbish, we would lose all hope and possibly move on, but they weren't and so we got strung along a bit longer than usual, letting the addiction/desire gain a better foothold on our hearts. I think that, even if we knew what Beren had for breakfast on the morning that he lost his hand, it still wouldn't be enough.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Do we truly want more, or is it that we just want that feeling back that we had when we first read LotR, when we were innocent and Middle Earth was brand new? Is this feeling nothing more than the adrenaline rush that we got when we first walked across Middle Earth with Frodo?

Good point, alatar, on whether we want to get back to the garden. But in a post-lapsarian world, what are we to do?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and hope it is an entish limb that will catch me should I fall.

To be entirely honest, it wasn't any of Tolkien's glimpses that got me reading more, nor was it Middle-earth itself (herself?). Nor was it the hobbits, who are so endearing, nor Gandalf, who as the Grey is one of the bestest wizards ever. There are two things that have compelled me to delve deeper into Tolkien lore, ever watchful for balrogs along the way.

First, it was Tolkien's essay On Fairie Stories that intrigued me so much I wanted to know more of his brand of fairie. That got me reading the Minor Works and rereading TH. And, then, it was this forum which prompted me to read on, read on. Had I not seen the enthusiasm for the Legendarium and the intense curiosity for The Silm which many of you Downers passionately declare, I might never have bothered to finish The Silm, which I treat as an encyclopedia rather than a story. Even now it remains for me a bit of a curiosity piece rather than a good old fashioned page-turner, which LotR and TH are, for me.

So credit must rightfully belong to you Downers and not only The Professor. It is you also who fuel the magic.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So credit must rightfully belong to you Downers and not only The Professor. It is you also who fuel the magic.

Interesting. So your desire is external. Think that the first 20 or so times that I read LotR and the Sil that this site didn't even exist; the internet wasn't even created for many of those readings. In my case then the magic was that there was more, and I think that, in retrospect, though I liked the additional information I was in reality chasing that initial thrill in the appendices and Sil. Surely I must have given up on that long ago, but by then I was hooked, in love perhaps, and so the rush wasn't as important.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Interesting. So your desire is external. Think that the first 20 or so times that I read LotR and the Sil that this site didn't even exist; the internet wasn't even created for many of those readings. In my case then the magic was that there was more, and I think that, in retrospect, though I liked the additional information I was in reality chasing that initial thrill in the appendices and Sil. Surely I must have given up on that long ago, but by then I was hooked, in love perhaps, and so the rush wasn't as important.

Oh, I first read LotR and TH looong before the Internet and looong before we knew The Silm! It's The Silm I am mainly referring to here. And in between, I was introduced to Tolkien's academic work, too.

But I don't quite get your distinction between external and internal. Maybe it is all the paint fumes I've been breathing lately, but it seems to me that whether we read internet posts or books on the printed page, that desire is created, is mediated, in the space between the object we read and our eyes.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

But I don't quite get your distinction between external and internal. Maybe it is all the paint fumes I've been breathing lately, but it seems to me that whether we read internet posts or books on the printed page, that desire is created, is mediated, in the space between the object we read and our eyes.

You state that the "magic" resides not only in the Professor's works but also in our fellow Downers' writings. To me that means that some percentage of your desire is external, meaning that if not for this site, you would read/have read less etc. If I were to have access only to the books and no other materials, I would still read them at least once per year. Surely this site keeps me 'thinking Tolkien' a bit more of my day than if it weren't available, but it doesn't effect my desire that much more.

Hopefully I've painted a better picture this time.

[Boromir88]

To explain a little more about internal and external. Internal influence would be the books themselves, the words, the writings, the 'glimpses,' its the 'primary source.' External would be anything related to the books, but not the books themselves...so a forum, a guidebook, anything related to the books that gets you stimulated and created the 'magic.'

I think Bethberry, you and I are very similar than. I do read The Lord of the Rings quite a bit. But, this forum and others like it sort of keep me in it. With The Sil, or Book of the Lost Tales...etc I treat more as a reference. Not something I go cover to cover with and read. Because, I get a different feeling with them.

The Lord of the Ring's is a progressive storyline, it's got a quest motif. And it just seems awkward jumping somewhere in the middle, and just reading that part. It's one progressive story, where we follow the characters, the quest to destroy the Ring, and then all the other little subplots. And to hop right in the middle of that, just feels wierd. It seems like I have to read it from cover to cover.

Where The Silmarillion and books like that, it isn't that same feel. The Sil reminds me a lot like Graham Greene's Power and the Glory (which I did absolutely love). The Power and the Glory has this choppy pattern. The Priest (which I don't think is ever named) is trying to avoid the police because there is a mass extermination of them during this time in Mexico. But the chapters are very choppy. The Priest is in one town, he gets out of a problem, then next chapter, he's suddenly in another place, and the action picks right up again. You don't get to see what goes on 'inbetween the chapters,' the priest is from one place to the next. I feel the same way when reading the Sil...there is a rough timeline of stories, but we have a collection of stories, put together. We go from one to the next, and there's really nothing to 'connect them.' Where the Lord of the Rings is much more tightly written and progressive from one chapter to the next.

So, it doesn't feel as awkward jumping into the middle of the Sil and reading something, because of the way the chapters and the stories go. With the Silmarillion there was no 'quest' to follow our characters a long the entire way, it was a collection of stories from earlier ages and the battles of those earlier ages. We pretty much jump from one story to the next.

Maybe, after devoting much of his life to Middle Earth, Tolkien wanted to get away from fulfilling the insatiable fan requests and simply just write greeting card text.

That's what I thought as well, for a little while, and perhaps it bogged him down more, but he never really seemed to lose love for his stories. In Letter 250, with his declining health he is still jokingly referring to him being like the Ents. And also:

Of course the L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes , as a person would of a child.~Letter # 328

I think he took a great interest in watching his stories grow and develop with the 'public's opinion,' and he never lost love for his stories. (As he always seemed to staunchly defend them if someone - Zimmerman - made a screen play or wanted to make them into 'movies.') I do think that he probably got frustrated, hampered down, but all the fan mail and people asking for 'more.' Of course I don't really know that, but I certainly would and could put myself in his situation...with his ailing health, answering letters, I think Sqautter brings up some good points with his 'perfectionism' of The Sil, making it fit with LOTR, it all bogged him down and had an effect...but I don't really think he ever lost a passion of the magic for his stories and still took interest in watching his books develop after being published.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

You state that the "magic" resides not only in the Professor's works but also in our fellow Downers' writings. To me that means that some percentage of your desire is external, meaning that if not for this site, you would read/have read less etc. If I were to have access only to the books and no other materials, I would still read them at least once per year. Surely this site keeps me 'thinking Tolkien' a bit more of my day than if it weren't available, but it doesn't effect my desire that much more.

Hopefully I've painted a better picture this time.

Ah, I see-- Primary versus Secondary Bibliography! Is our reading canonical or not?

Actually, I'm not sure I would accept that statement I would have read less. After all, for quite some time, all readers had were just TH and LotR. I half suspect that it is the rise of all the secondary material that stimulates much rereading. I mean, once one knows The Silm, does one go back to LotR to catch all the references to the Legendarium? Does Aragorn the character make more sense after reading The Silm?

Then again, I suppose it all depends on what one does when one reads, how one reads Tolkien. It's like there are different ways of reading The Bible. I don't mean different interpretations, but differing attitudes towards the activity.

Do Tolkien's books turn one inward, so that one ritually rereads Tolkien, as a kind of mantra? (I could certainly see Entish easily substituting for a focus word enabling concentration. Hooommm. Hoooommmm.) Or do his books turn one to reading other books? His OFS, for example, makes a fascinating template against which to consider other writers of fantasy and earlier fantasy/mythology. His hints of other mythologies lead out to a variety of myths, legends and folklore while his rhythms turn towards other writers-- W.H. Auden, for instance -- who sought to recover the old forms of Old English for modern times. To say nothing of the utterly fascinating way that Tolkien has influenced SF writers who have come after him.

Perhaps it all depends on what one means by "more" -- more of the same or more sub-creation.