Saruman for or against Sauron?

[Kuruharan]

Greetings davem.

I thought I would drag you out of the woodwork.

I'm afraid I have to admit that I don't find much relevance in your post. The expressed opinions by the author regarding the events and circumstances of his or her own stories are what carry weight when compared to the speculations of readers, no matter where or in what form the expressed opinions of the author happen to appear. I'm not refering to themes or interpretations of the stories here, I'm refering to events. Obviously, themes and interpretations are freely speculated upon by anybody and everybody. However, if you are attempting to postulate alternative scenarios to what would have happened in the story, I think that if the author makes any comments in the area under consideration we have to defer to their judgment if we wish to continue to discuss the works of the author in question. If we the readers want to continue our little line of thought, we need to do it with the understanding that we have departed the discussion of the work of the author and are instead pursuing our own. This is the main point I've been trying to get across.

There is one thing I wish to discuss though...

It is essential in reading LotR that we know that not just Gandalf but Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel as well as Saruman could take, master & wield the Ring.

I don't think it is possible for me to disagree more strongly with this statement. It is not essential that Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, and Saruman possess the potential to supplant Sauron. I think the reverse is true. I think the fact that they are being lied to by the Ring and their own desires when they have no hope of actually achieving their fevered imaginings heightens the tension. If they try to take the Ring, they will fall to Sauron (only Gandalf potentially excepted) and the plot of The Lord of the Rings is about avoiding this fate.

Why then did Tolkien write about Saruman coming in for the Ring, if he had no chance of wielding its powers?

Perhaps he wrote it as a lesson in self-delusion. As Boromir88 said, Saruman’s desires were lying to him. His ego would never allow him to admit to himself (or probably even entertain the thought in any way) that he was utterly incapable of mastering the Ring and nothing he could do would change that. However, I think probably Tolkien’s primary motivation for writing the story that way was because it made for a great yarn.

'expectations' are not always certainty. And that's exactly what the Letter 246 quote says...'might be expected.' Again, even if Gandalf was the only one expected to be able to master the ring:

Have you stopped to ask yourself the question of who is doing the expecting?

Doesn't mean anyone else wouldn't be able to do so.

And here we are back with the same old “only Gandalf” business again.

So, I don't think 'might' and 'expect' two words of uncertainty should simply be ignored.

Again, ask yourself who is doing the expecting.

[davem]

The expressed opinions by the author regarding the events and circumstances of his or her own stories are what carry weight when compared to the speculations of readers, no matter where or in what form the expressed opinions of the author happen to appear. I'm not refering to themes or interpretations of the stories here, I'm refering to events

The most important thing is the internal logic of the secondary world. Galadriel, Saruman, Gandalf & Elrond had the capacity to wield the Ring - at the right time in the right circumstances. If they had not why would Sauron, who knew the nature of the Ring better than any, expend so much effort in trying to retrieve it?

Gandalf is clear

Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule. 'Now Sauron knows all this, and he knows that this precious thing which he lost has been found again; but he does not yet know where it is, or so we hope. And therefore he is now in great doubt. For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it. That too he knows. For do I not guess rightly, Aragorn, that you have shown yourself to him in the Stone of Orthanc?'

So, is Gandalf lying here? Gandalf states that Sauron 'knows there are some among us with strength enough to wield it', & he is clearly including Aragorn in that 'some'. Do we believe Tolkien or Gandalf?

[Formendacil]

As odd as it may be for me to weigh in on the same side of a canonicity debate as Davem... that's what I appear to be doing.

But to give the Letter fuller weight than I am inclined to do, I have to ask, when Gandalf is said to be the only one who might be fully expected to master the Ring in Sauron's despite, of what group is Tolkien selecting here? After all, I'm fairly sure that just about any Valar could pick up the Ring, use it with no adverse effects, and quash Sauron into the ground.

No, Tolkien is clearly saying of a certain group, only Gandalf could be expected to use the Ring successfully. Well, what is this "certain group". My own reading of it is that this group doesn't included Saruman at all, that when Tolkien was saying this, he had in mind the bigwigs of the West, the group highlighted in Davem's quotes of the previous post: Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn, possibly Denethor- and Gandalf. Of the "ringleaders" of the West, looking at this list, it makes perfect sense to say that Gandalf was the only one that could be expected to best Sauron. He was the only one who was Sauron's peer WITHOUT the Ring.

And, looked at in this light, this doesn't so much weaken the Saruman claim, as make it stronger, since Saruman was also Sauron's native peer.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

No, Tolkien is clearly saying of a certain group, only Gandalf could be expected to use the Ring successfully. Well, what is this "certain group". My own reading of it is that this group doesn't included Saruman at all, that when Tolkien was saying this, he had in mind the bigwigs of the West, the group highlighted in Davem's quotes of the previous post: Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn, possibly Denethor- and Gandalf. Of the "ringleaders" of the West, looking at this list, it makes perfect sense to say that Gandalf was the only one that could be expected to best Sauron. He was the only one who was Sauron's peer WITHOUT the Ring.

I wouldn't set even this limit. In the quote from The Last Debate I gave earlier Gandalf clearly states that Aragorn could have mastered & used the Ring. Galadriel's words are even clearer:

'I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, 'a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?' 'You have not tried,' she said. 'Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise.

The Rings give some degree of 'power' to any possessor - according to their 'measure'. The statement in the letter is simply incorrect, as it contradicts statements made by characters in the story itself.

Now, it may well be that Tolkien changed his conception of the nature of the Ring in the post-LotR period, but for his statement in the letter to be acceptable he would have had to re-write a good part of the story, change motivations & behaviour. If we are to take Tolkien's statement in the letter as fact we have to say that major characters from Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel, Elrond & even Sauron himself are either completely mistaken about the nature of the Ring, are lying, or are simply making stuff up. because they make what are apparently very clear statements about the nature & power of the Ring. It even smacks of some kind of conspiracy as all those characters, both good & bad, are telling the same lie (including, let me add, the narrator of the story!).

Sorry, but the easiest way out of this 'dilemma' is to dismiss Tolkien's statement & let the story stand.

[Kuruharan]

If they had not why would Sauron, who knew the nature of the Ring better than any, expend so much effort in trying to retrieve it?

Why does anybody do anything that would make things easier for them or get them more information? My guess would be is that Sauron was not sure what would happen if somebody else attempted to claim the Ring.

This is not at all surprising considering that Sauron himself did not seem to be aware of all the aspects and potentialities of the Ring (see his belief that it had been destroyed...)

Do we believe Tolkien or Gandalf?

Perhaps The Man himself can answer for us in a passage that could illuminate this discussion where he says regarding Treebeard's knowledge of the creation of orcs...

Treebeard is a character in my story not me
-Letter 153

There is clear differentiation here between what Tolkien knows and what his characters know. You say that Gandalf implied that Aragorn was capable of wielding the Ring. Tolkien explicitly denied that Aragorn would have been able to do so successfully and so defeat Sauron. Aragorn, for all his high heritage and nobility of character was not on Sauron's level.

I don't think there is any doubt about which opinion we need to follow in this case.

[Kuruharan]

And, looked at in this light, this doesn't so much weaken the Saruman claim, as make it stronger, since Saruman was also Sauron's native peer.

But Saruman was ultimately weaker in his soul than Gandalf from beginning to end.

I'm afraid there is no traction for this idea from this angle either.

And besides, Denethor was evidently had more strength of spirit than Saruman as he did not turn traitor. This does not speak well of Saruman's strength of will and strength of will would be a critical ingredient (probably the critical ingredient in mastering the Ring).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

There is clear differentiation here between what Tolkien knows and what his characters know. You say that Gandalf implied that Aragorn was capable of wielding the Ring. Tolkien explicitly denied that Aragorn would have been able to do so successfully and so defeat Sauron. Aragorn, for all his high heritage and nobility of character was not on Sauron's level..

Sorry, but I think you're 'doing a Gimli' there:

'Did you say aught to--him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.' 'You forget to whom you speak,' said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. 'What did you fear that I should say to him? Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Nay, Gimli,' he said in a softer voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. 'Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough--barely.' He drew a deep breath. 'It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword are revealed; for I showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.'

Aragorn has the strength of Will to claim & use the Ring - & Sauron knows that - which is why he fears Aragorn - unless, of course, Aragorn is lying to his friends.

[Kuruharan]

The Rings give some degree of 'power' to any possessor - according to their 'measure'. The statement in the letter is simply incorrect, as it contradicts statements made by characters in the story itself.

Not really.

Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor?

Do you honestly think the Ring, which is fundamentally a part of Sauron, is going to aid and abet another's quest to master it?

I find that unlikely in the extreme. The Ring would probably deceive that individual into thinking it was mastered and then betray said person to Sauron at the first available opportunity. The individual in question would quite likely be so power mad by that point that they wouldn't know if the Ring were truly mastered.

It is probably the seeds of self-doubt that reside in Gandalf (among other things) that make him uniquely capable of mastering the Ring. He would probably be less susceptible to its lies. Saruman does not impress on this score, and quite frankly, neither does Galadriel. Elrond might be a slightly different matter.

Sorry, but the easiest way out of this 'dilemma' is to dismiss Tolkien's statement & let the story stand.

There is no dilemma here. There are only some rather ill-founded opinions that some seem unwilling to let go of, to the point that if they can’t twist Tolkien’s words to suit them they will then just dismiss him out of hand if it is convenient.

Aragorn has the strength of Will to claim & use the Ring

Uhh…no. That passage doesn’t prove this at all. That passage proved that Aragorn had the strength and will to use the palantir (which was rightfully his anyway). The Ring and the palantir were two very different things.

Aragorn is lying to his friends

You are putting words in Aragorn’s mouth. He wasn’t claiming he could master the Ring.

[davem]

It is a question of 'will'. Aragorn's will was stronger than Saruman's - who let it be remembered fell to Sauron via the Palantir. Aragorn not only did not fall to him he actually proved that his will was stronger than Sauron's. Will is the essential element in controlling the Ring. Wresting control of the Palantir (or anything else) from Sauron was something no-one else in Middle-earth could have done.

Aragorn may not have claimed he could master the Ring, but Gandalf, in the Last Debate, clearly states that he could.

This argument centres around one comment in one letter, which was never meant for publication & probably reflects Tolkien's speculations at that time. There is no reason to suppose that he continued to hold that view. And if he did it would have caused as many inconsistencies as his later development of Galadriel & 'Dome of Varda', etc, did.

I think that if another commentator had made that statement about only Gandalf being able to master the Ring you would have laughed them out of court, using the same arguments & quotes that the rest of us have been using, because it doesn't fit the facts.

[Lalwendë]

To me the word 'master' is at the centre of this. I do not think anyone apart from Sauron could have 'mastered' the Ring in the fullest sense of the word. Only Sauron could use the Ring truly wilfully. Others may have been able to make at least intelligent use of the Ring - intelligent as being opposed to merely using it to 'hide'. That's something that I'm sure none of us could argue against - that's part of why the Ring is so dangerous and seductive. It makes people think they could truly 'master' it, when in reality they would never be acting with their own will.

I do think that if say Gandalf had used the Ring then Sauron could have been, if not totally destroyed, then at least fatally harmed (in as far as Maiar can be 'fatally harmed' ). I also think that Saruman could have had as much a chance, such as there was, with the Ring as any of his contemporaries.

[Kuruharan]

A personal confrontation between Sauron and the new ringlord is what I have been talking about the whole time. In the battle between Sauron and the ringlord the armies would engage and play tremendous havoc with each other. In the confusion, Sauron would storm up to the pretender and personally settle matters with them.

I am fairly convinced that there was a time during the third age when Sauron could have been defeated even by a non-ringlord

I suppose it depends on what you mean by defeated. He was driven from Dol Guldur twice, although he retreated willingly both times. If you mean obliterated, that wasn’t possible without either the destruction or mastery of the Ring, which wasn’t in any way possible until ca. 2463. However, for practical purposes it wasn’t possible until 2941, the year Sauron left Dol Guldur permanently. He returned to Mordor the next year. Ignoring all the problems of getting the Ring to one of the other “potential” candidates for Ring-mastery (as I have no problem with the picture of Gandalf being able to overthrow and replace Sauron) lets just say for the sake of argument that this other contender gets the Ring in 2942, the same year Sauron returned in secret to Mordor (obviously Aragorn is out of this particular picture). At that moment Sauron has not begun rebuilding Barad-dur and Dol Guldur lies empty. Militarily speaking the new Ringlord could command the forces of Gondor, Rohan, Lorien, the Woodland Realm, Dale, Laketown, whatever Woodmen happened to be sitting around with nothing else to do, and the Longbeards (Isengard and Dunland if Saruman is the new Ringlord, although Saruman had not at this point, it would seem, taken an army into his service yet). Assuming the new Ringlord knew where to find Sauron (which is conceivable) the Ringlord would probably have wanted to head to Mordor to put down the ultimate threat once and for all. It would probably have taken a few years to pull all of this together, with probably at least a year to put the army together. During this time Sauron would undoubtedly know what had happened. He too would spend the time assembling his forces and probably quickly establish himself in Mordor. At this point he would still undoubtedly have a large army of orcs to call upon as well as the military forces of multiple eastern and southern peoples. We still ultimately end up with a battle and a situation from which I don’t think anybody but Gandalf could have emerged victorious.

As an aside, one begins to wonder where Sauron kept his orcs during his period of exile. He apparently had some sort of dwelling in eastern Middle-earth, which is probably a likely candidate. Truly, eastern Middle-earth must have had some interesting tales to tell about itself.

[Farael]

Now, I would not want to ruin this spectacular debate with a bit of speculation (and no irony there, you guys are interesting to read) but are we forgetting one little detail?

Kuruharan you state that Sauron's armies would defeat the Ringlord's but... when Samwise a hobbit, and not the greatest one at that, was clutching the ring, Snaga (I believe it was him the orc who was running down the stairs) saw him as a huge, threatening figure. How would the other minions of Sauron see a more powerful ringlord actively using the ring?

I don't know about being able to gather enough troops for this difference to be meaningful, but if the ringlord had enough time to build up a strong enough army, and possibly choose the terrain where the fight would take place (after all, waiting only benefits the new ringlord, thus odds are Sauron would not wait for too long before launching his attack) it is possible that his army would have defeated Sauron's.

Now, in this scenario there is the issue of what would happen if Sauron himself decided to show up for the party. That'd be an interesting scenario, as I'm sure Sauron's minions fear him twice as much as they'd fear the ringlord... what would happen then?

I do not know, but the way I interpret Tolkien's comment is that, in a one-on-one battle, Sauron would win against all save perhaps Gandalf. At the same time, the characters in the book are talking about another scenario, what would happen if a strong-enough ringlord decided to battle his armies against Sauron's?

And keep in mind that none of the characters talk about certainty... so perhaps it is possible for them to defeat Sauron's armies, and effectively usurp Sauron's place (although sooner or later Sauron would arise again since the ring was still both existant and "unmastered")* but only Gandalf could defeat Sauron himself.

*Taking into account the previous comment that mastering the ring would be to break the link between it and Sauron, something only Gandalf could have done. This is unlike wielding, which would be using it without achieving mastery.
Just my cent and a half (short of two cents)

[Kuruharan]

when Samwise a hobbit, and not the greatest one at that, was clutching the ring, Snaga (I believe it was him the orc who was running down the stairs) saw him as a huge, threatening figure. How would the other minions of Sauron see a more powerful ringlord actively using the ring?

A very good point, and it also had its effect on Shagrat who was probably about as strong-willed as an orc could be, although Shagrat still held onto his purpose in that encounter. I think the effect on orcs (and indeed on lots of people) would have been even more intense for somebody who was actively trying to claim and use the Ring. I think that is part of the reason why Sauron would try to force a personal encounter quickly. However, I think Sauron would probably have a similar effect on those in his presence and in any case the new Ringlord could only be in once place at a time and I think the overpowering dread the Ring would inspire would be a...well, for lack of a better way of phrasing it a limited area-of-effect spell. It could dominate its immediate vicinity but this particular effect would not dominate the field.

As far as what would happen on the field, questions about terrain etc. are unanswerable unless one wanted to construct scenarios that would obviously be non-canonical in the extreme (even though it would probably be interesting). However, it must be remembered that Sauron was far from strategically incompetent, as his performance showed. He was defeated at the Pelennor Fields because the enemy achieved a tactical and strategic masterstroke in simultaneously robbing him of his reinforcements and getting in the rear of his army. This would cause the defeat of almost any army.

In the battle with the new Ringlord I think that Sauron and the new Ringlord would have been using their respective armies for two different purposes. The new Ringlord would have used his/her army to try and defeat Sauron. Sauron would have used his army to try and pin down the enemy so he could go take back what was his. Two different purposes, but put both of them together and it favors Sauron getting what he wanted.

[Raynor]

A personal confrontation between Sauron and the new ringlord is what I have been talking about the whole time. In the battle between Sauron and the ringlord the armies would engage and play tremendous havoc with each other. In the confusion, Sauron would storm up to the pretender and personally settle matters with them.

I have never challenged the idea that Sauron would win in a direct single battle against anyone but Gandalf, although you keep returning to this; the meaning of my argument was that the ringlord would avoid, as I quoted from the letters, contemplating such a direct fight. I guess we will also have to agree to disagree that Sauron would be involved in a direct battle, out of several reasons: it seems to be the way things are in Arda that the greatest of leaders are not involved in direct battle (as Tolkien says in Myths Transformed: "the Government is always in Whitehall"); Melkor feared for his body, I think we can safely assume Sauron did too; IIRC, there was a single time when Sauron is mentioned to have engaged in direct combat, and he lost - I believe he learned the lesson; at the last battle, in front of the gates of Mordor, it is implied in LotR that Sauron believed the ringlord was present, but he did not come himself to fight.

There is another element that might be interesting to this discussion:

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.

I think it all comes down to the interpretation of what "challenge" mean. If it means direct confrontation, then it is probably down only to Gandalf; however, I think that challenge can be taken in a more general meaning; if that is the case, it appears that simple possession of the ring can provide, in itself, that which is required to overthrow Sauron.

Was Saruman aware that the fellowship may consider detroying the Ring, given that Gandalf had refused him the chance of using it? If Gandalf would not wield it, then what may Saruman expect them to do with the Ring? Just take it somewhere for safe keeping? He may have thought the same as Sauron, that the Ring Bearer was on his wasy to Minas Tirith. But who then had the strength & power to wield it there? Denethor?

[Gil-Galad]

"The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend till my Enemy is no more, then my friend is my Enemy."

it was simply like that, if Gondor fell, then it will be between Saruman and Sauron.

[Smaug]

I have a very much associated question.

Do you guys think that Saruman would have sought to integrate with Sauron and thus gain power under the rank-and-file system? Saruman seems to have pursued the ring vehemently in order to be all powerful and to dictate matters entirely throughout Middle Earth.

Would Saruman with his own armies from his base in Isenguard have battled Sauron for power in ME? Is this to suggest that Saruman like Sauron could forge his own dark armies that would remain loyal to him, and fight the forces of Mordor? Thus pitting orc against orc.