Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Nogrod]

Even though I first decided not to, I still had to make a few checks...

This I found most enlightening to all of us who are planning putting up a kitchen in the Mead Hall...

The kitchen remained largely unaffected by architectural advances throughout the middle ages; open fire remained the only method of heating food. European medieval kitchens were dark, smokey, and sooty places, whence their name "smoke kitchen". In European medieval cities around the 10th to 12th centuries, the kitchen still used an open fire hearth in the middle of the room. In wealthy homes, the ground floor was often used as a stable while the kitchen was located on the floor above, like the bedroom and the hall. In castles and monasteries, the living and working areas were separated; the kitchen was sometimes moved to a separate building, and thus couldn't serve anymore to heat the living rooms. In some castles the kitchen was retained in the same structure, but servants were strictly separated from nobles, by constructing separate spiral stone staircases for use of servants to bring food to upper levels. An extant example of such a medieval kitchen with servants's staircase is at Muchalls Castle in Scotland. In Japanese homes, the kitchen started to become a separate room within the main building at that time.

With the advent of the chimney, the hearth moved from the center of the room to one wall, and the first brick-and-mortar hearths were built. The fire was lit on top of the construction; a vault underneath served to store wood. Pots made of iron, bronze, or copper started to replace the pottery used earlier. The temperature was controlled by hanging the pot higher or lower over the fire, or placing it on a trivet or directly on the hot ashes. Using open fire for cooking (and heating) was risky; fires devastating whole cities occurred frequently.

Beginning in the late middle ages, kitchens in Europe lost their home-heating function even more and were increasingly moved from the living area into a separate room. The living room was now heated by tiled stoves, operated from the kitchen, which offered the huge advantage of not filling the room with smoke.

Freed from smoke and dirt, the living room thus began to serve as an area for social functions and increasingly became a showcase for the owner's wealth and was sometimes prestigiously furnished. In the upper classes, cooking and the kitchen were the domain of the servants, and the kitchen was set apart from the living rooms, sometimes even far from the dining room. Poorer homes often did not have a separate kitchen yet; they kept the one-room arrangement where all activities took place, or at the most had the kitchen in the entrance hall.

The medieval smoke kitchen remained common, especially in rural farmhouses and generally in poorer homes, until much later. In a few European farmhouses, the smoke kitchen was in regular use until the middle of the 20th century. These houses often had no chimney, but only a smoke hood above the fireplace, made of wood and covered with clay, and used to smoke meat. The smoke then rose more or less freely, warming the upstairs rooms and protecting the woodwork from vermin.

The whole article can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen#Middle_Ages

I also found many notes that Celuien was referring to, like this one:

The medieval kitchen was where all the dishes for the castle's meals were prepared. It was usually set away from the great hall, where most of the meals were served. This was to prevent a fire in the kitchen from spreading to the great hall. Fires happened often because all food was cooked over a fire or in an oven. However, because the kitchen was built away from the great hall, food often got cold on the trip from the kitchen to the great hall. Thus, an enclosed passageway of wood or stone would be constructed between the two. This would help to keep out the wind and keep the food warm on the trip

I have bolded the important word: castle (and monasteries are talked at some texts too). I ran to this thing as I tried to find information from my copy of Viollet'Le-Duc's "Encyclopédie Médiévale" - all they talked was great castles...

PS. One thing we should consider is whether we are building an oven or an open fire hearth - or both?

[Celuien]

Good finds, Nogrod.

So I guess it's Eodwine's call about how grand he wants to be. A simple hall, or a more elaborate castle-like business.

I sort of like the idea of building an oven. I'd imagine the baked goods are somewhat nicer coming from an oven than they would be if made in a dish set in an open fire.

[JennyHallu]

I'm a little confused on where Eodwine gets his ideas of generosity. I can't find a definition of Anglo-Saxon guest-rights; the closest I can find is Greek xenia, which was highly formalized. And in Greece.

I fear Eodwine runs the risk of over-familiarity with his vassals and subjects, and Marenil shall work to correct that. If Eodwine insists on inviting anyone to stay as a guest of the hall, he will probably ensure those guest-rights only put so much of a burden on Eodwine: who has a large household to support already and no income besides his taxes, which must be used for more than just support of his house, but also for his reciprocal duties to his taxpayers. So he will encourage the idea that free-guests have rights to a pallet in the hall and a proscribed (and very simple) meal, much like a waystation for pilgrims in medieval Europe. I also wonder if, while freeguesting is one thing, care of a horse or packbeast shouldn't carry some nominal fee...that can be far more expensive than feeding a man.

And as for providing better and more space for Eodwine's household to live, Marenil is of the practical opinion that, while loyalty is a lovely thing, each of Eodwine's vassals has their own families and hides to look after, and without adequately providing for those, Eodwine doesn't fulfil his responsibilities as their lord. A married man should be able to have some private room and space to share with his wife, and Marenil sees these children as people who will only get older: and eventually need their own space. I think he is likely to suggest some sort of dormitory or barracks for single men with no dependents. That could be a very simple long, low hall, with a private room to serve as quarters and office for Garwine. He may also climb up into the attic space, and see what can be done there to convert it to quarters for older children or lower maids.

There should also be a proper ladies' bower (Especially in a Mead Hall: if you go by Beowulf the hall is a gathering place mainly for men, and the ladies congregate elsewhere after seeing to their men). In a household such as this, the ladies ought to be producing embroidered fabrics and weavings both for the comfort of their own hall, and to add to Eodwine's small pittance of an income. Also, a ladies' bower serves as an informal place for Saeryn to accept guests and petitioners who feel uncomfortable or uncertain coming to the lord himself. A stillroom, connected to the bower, is also a good idea. One of a Lady's tasks would be the concoction of perfumes and remedies for both the use of the household and for sale.

Marenil may also suggest that the form of the taxes should be changed. His suggestion: if Eodwine allowed his vassals (those that farm) to choose between taxes all in coin and taxes that are a portion of their produce (and makes it slightly more profitable to pay in produce...) he could use his contacts in Dol Amroth to sell his goods down there, far from where they are grown. My take on Dol Amroth has been to compare that land to Italy, with its poor quality, rocky soil. (Come on, obvious comparison...it's a principality) Great for sheep, and maybe some fruit plants...not so much for always-oh-so-necessary grain production. Selling down there could allow Eodwine to make a profit on his taxes, without having an ill-effect on his vassals.

Also, a portion of these agricultural 'tithes' could be kept for the consumption of the household, and lower the grocery bill a bit. A supply of grain could allow a hearty porridge to be made for free-guests, that could be always on the stove, and therefore readily available, and more expensive, elaborate meals prepared in smaller quantities, solely for the consumption of the household, without as large a drain on Eodwine's purse.

Also, oughtn't Eodwine be keeping chickens, a dairy cow, and a pig somewhere? Chickens are a constant supply of food, if managed correctly, a cow would provide milk, butter, and cheese (perhaps two cows would be needed, considering the size of the household...), and the expense of keeping one pig is balanced by quite a significant amount of easily preserved meats (A smoked ham or slab of bacon keeps quite well in a cool cellar), not to mention the lard necessary for a lot of medieval cooking, candle-making, soap-making, and any number of crafts to make both life more comfortable, and perhaps line Eodwine's pockets.

Ooh! Another idea! and another way for Eodwine to supplement his income: he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand.

If we have a large lot to work with, then, here are Marenil's suggestions:

Build a barracks, a bower and stillroom, a smoke-shed, a chicken-coop, an animal shed with a pen, and convert the attic space for residential space.

In Marenil's view, the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space, (except perhaps Frodides due to age) which if insulated and planned properly wouldn't be uncomfortable. Menfolk would be relegated to the barracks. I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there.

Whew...I actually came to a conclusion in all that...

[Firefoot]

he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand.

I've already come up with that idea -- although, now that you mention it, I'm not sure if that was ever on the DT or just mentioned a while back in a pm to lmp...

I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there.

Leof sleeps in the stable, and he's not goin' nowhere.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space,

In this instance, Saeryn will, without asking anybody's say-so, remove all of her belongings from her room and go bunk down with the other womenfolk. And if anybody speaks to her of it, she will give to them a patented Saeryn tongue lashing.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Separate thought that has been nagging me:

LMP, what happened to the maids that were around in The White Horse? There was at least one... can't remember her name. She and Saeryn shared a giggle when Beth got a face full of ash when showing Saeryn her room her first day there.

Do we still have maids, or shall I address why we have no maids (I can come up with delightful reasons, but I'll probably settle with something believable) when Saeryn brings the matter up to Eodwine?

[JennyHallu]

In this instance, Saeryn will, without asking anybody's say-so, remove all of her belongings from her room and go bunk down with the other womenfolk. And if anybody speaks to her of it, she will give to them a patented Saeryn tongue lashing.

Saeryn may wish to bed up with the women, but Marenil's likely to put his foot down, and he's not likely to put up with a tongue-lashing from someone he sees as a little girl. As Lady, she has appearances and responsibilities to upkeep, and part of that is keeping herself separate from the help. And that implies no condescension, but the right and proper place of the Lady in a class-based structure. Just like how the boss in an office setting today works in an office, and not a cubicle with the regular monkeys. It wouldn't be appropriate.

Just a thought, anyway.

EDIT: and it might make lower maids uncomfortable...They'd never have a time terribly private to themselves if their lady-boss is around in their living space too.

I wonder how much Saeryn's thought through her new position and its implications?

Do we still have maids, or shall I address why we have no maids (I can come up with delightful reasons, but I'll probably settle with something believable) when Saeryn brings the matter up to Eodwine?

I wondered if we could assume some extra help as NPCs: a maid or two, maybe a smaller lad working as groom under Leof, servers on feast days, general laborers working on the construction under the supervision of Garstan and Stigend....

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I'm a little confused on where Eodwine gets his ideas of generosity.

From Beowulf; with a gloss. From that book comes the idea of lords as ring-givers in order to secure the loyalty of their warriors. Eodwine is an idealist, which makes him attractive to good people but also gets him in trouble with opportunists. He's enough of a realist to realize this, and puts hope in his retainers that they will be enough of a support to offset - or better yet - insulate the mead hall from - the damage 'opportunists' might try to wreak.

Originally Posted by Jenny

I fear Eodwine runs the risk of over-familiarity with his vassals and subjects, and Marenil shall work to correct that.

Well he might. He's got a lord who started life as a farmer/commoner, who was thrust into lordship by a gracious king, and who will be a bad student in terms of becoming less familiar with his vassals.

By all means, have Marenil make the suggestions you've mentioned. This should be quite fun. Marenil will at times find Eodwine to be quite ready to do as he suggests, and at other times quite stubborn.

There should be out buildings (better than hovels) made on the grounds as the number of retainers increases. Something new I've learned from my reading is that in a mead hall, benches were fixed, and bedding was stored underneath them in closed compartments; each warrior had his own assigned bench, and slept in the mead hall during the night. There's your barracks.

There should also be a proper ladies' bower (Especially in a Mead Hall: if you go by Beowulf the hall is a gathering place mainly for men, and the ladies congregate elsewhere after seeing to their men).

Quite right. But where?

I still have more to reply to from your post, Jenny, as time allows....

[JennyHallu]

There should be out buildings (better than hovels) made on the grounds as the number of retainers increases. Something new I've learned from my reading is that in a mead hall, benches were fixed, and bedding was stored underneath them in closed compartments; each warrior had his own assigned bench, and slept in the mead hall during the night. There's your barracks.

The reason I suggested a separate barracks is because Eodwine opens his doors to any guest, with no way to check up on them or their stories. Marenil thinks Eodwine's own men should have a place of higher honor than random strangers, and doesn't want them to have to store their belongings in the open. Marenil also is new to Rohan, and thinks making your sworn armsmen 'roll on the floor with the dogs' is a bit barbaric, especially when your resources allow for something more. (After all, it was insulting when Grima implied only children did so)

EDIT: But those benches sound great for guests...Marenil was thinking of making cotton screens to mark off areas for each guest (he's very big on privacy...)

Hmm...WWTD?

EDIT AGAIN: And a barracks would provide space to harbor the general laborers Eodwine no doubt needs for construction, besides his artisans. Housing for them would preserve space in the Hall for guests, which seemed important to Eodwine.

Oh, and location for the bower: I thought an apse could be built off the main nave of the Hall, opposite the old Inn wing. I've been looking at plans of pilgrim waystations, usually monasteries, that let any and all visitors sleep in the hall, but had separate quarters for permanent residents. It's the wrong era, but now I've got church design stuck in my head somehow.

I SHOULD GIVE IN AND JUST DOUBLE POST:
By outbuildings I assume you mean small cottages? Ooh...that could be nice, and very simple. No kitchens are needed, just a fireplace for warmth with a chimney that could be shared by two cottages, built side-to-side...and big enough that a woman could have a dutch oven or something if she chose, because every woman should have space to make sweets for her own kids . A single good-sized room with a sturdily floored loft?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

The reason I suggested a separate barracks is because Eodwine opens his doors to any guest, with no way to check up on them or their stories.

Eodwine is going to butt heads with Marenil on this one....

Hmm...WWTD?

Indeed!

By outbuildings I assume you mean small cottages? Ooh...that could be nice, and very simple. No kitchens are needed, just a fireplace for warmth with a chimney that could be shared by two cottages, built side-to-side...and big enough that a woman could have a dutch oven or something if she chose, because every woman should have space to make sweets for her own kids . A single good-sized room with a sturdily floored loft?

I like it. Eodwine will too.

Hmmmm... a paddock. That is a problem. That's one of the reason why the old White Horse Inn was one supremely BAD choice as residence of the new Eorl of the Middle Emnet. There's no space for it unless Eodwine buys neighboring properties, which he can't afford to do. So the horses have currently to be exercised by, well, riding them through town! (sheesh) ... or into the open country. Not that Edoras is a city, of course, but the White Horse Inn would have been situated in the middle of town, near a market with residences not far away.

Feanor, you can't fool me. Merdha threatens to become a major character and you know it. Of course, I wouldn't mind. And yes you can have Saeryn turn her into the housekeeper. There! I think I'm caught up! That took, what, 3 days? During which time I've looked at not a single other thread! Good grief! Now to check out what all of you have actually been writing on the Mead Hall thread......(good grief)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Feanor, you can't fool me. Merdha threatens to become a major character and you know it.

I know it as well as you do. I also know that she wasn't meant to be one... it just sort of happened.

Ah, back to work.

How much longer will this "day" last, do you think?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Marenil may also suggest that the form of the taxes should be changed. His suggestion: if Eodwine allowed his vassals (those that farm) to choose between taxes all in coin and taxes that are a portion of their produce (and makes it slightly more profitable to pay in produce...) he could use his contacts in Dol Amroth to sell his goods down there, far from where they are grown. My take on Dol Amroth has been to compare that land to Italy, with its poor quality, rocky soil. (Come on, obvious comparison...it's a principality) Great for sheep, and maybe some fruit plants...not so much for always-oh-so-necessary grain production. Selling down there could allow Eodwine to make a profit on his taxes, without having an ill-effect on his vassals.

Transport is either through rugged mountains or all the way around them, whichever direction. Is there a way through the White Mountains ... besides the Paths of the Dead, which, though now cleared by Aragron, surely are still not used with any regularity. Eodwine would wonder if the cost of transport wouldn't completely eat up any profits and then some.

Also, a portion of these agricultural 'tithes' could be kept for the consumption of the household, and lower the grocery bill a bit. A supply of grain could allow a hearty porridge to be made for free-guests, that could be always on the stove, and therefore readily available, and more expensive, elaborate meals prepared in smaller quantities, solely for the consumption of the household, without as large a drain on Eodwine's purse.

If I had been thinking a bit more clearly on court day, I would have had a line or two about the various gifts brought by his many guests, and his returns thereof. I'll have to cover that in a post when I get a chance, after the fact. Minor niggle: "the stove"? Were there such things?

Also, oughtn't Eodwine be keeping chickens, a dairy cow, and a pig somewhere? Chickens are a constant supply of food, if managed correctly, a cow would provide milk, butter, and cheese (perhaps two cows would be needed, considering the size of the household...), and the expense of keeping one pig is balanced by quite a significant amount of easily preserved meats (A smoked ham or slab of bacon keeps quite well in a cool cellar), not to mention the lard necessary for a lot of medieval cooking, candle-making, soap-making, and any number of crafts to make both life more comfortable, and perhaps line Eodwine's pockets.

This is something Eodwine would be quite eager to pursue.

Ooh! Another idea! and another way for Eodwine to supplement his income: he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand.

Excellent idea.

If we have a large lot to work with, then, here are Marenil's suggestions:

Build a barracks, a bower and stillroom, a smoke-shed, a chicken-coop, an animal shed with a pen, and convert the attic space for residential space.

Well, the lot isn't that big. That's one of the key problems with the mead hall idea and its "implementation". Eodwine may have to beg of the king for more land adjacent to his current mead hall holding. I've addressed the barracks issue already.

In Marenil's view, the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space, (except perhaps Frodides due to age) which if insulated and planned properly wouldn't be uncomfortable. Menfolk would be relegated to the barracks. I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there.

Eodwine will be hard to convince about this.... at least, at first.

Feanor, the maids in the White Horse moved on. The only exception I was willing to make was Frodides, who has happily been picked up by Kath. I'd like to keep the mead hall populated by characters that actually have committed writers.

Watch for Eodwine to put his foot down if his steward begins to tell himself or the Lady of the hall how to behave as proper nobility. (this is getting fun!)

The only way I'm willing to have NPCs is if a given writer commits to being that character's regular writer. This may be just a quirk of mine, but I dislike characters hanging around with no writer; this is partly why Gudryn and Æðelhild have been discreetly sent to other places. And, by the way, Lalwendë's characters are considered to have gone to the Fair and then home, to visit again should they wish to.

I'm with Formy on coniferous forests at the feet of the White Mountains ... which are not that far off; but it has yet to be determined if that's Middle Emnet land, or King's land. I'll think about that.

Next post to read: 6:43 p.m. yesterday..... la dee dah dee dah ....

[Firefoot]

As long as we're talking about expansion...

Oughtn't there to be some kind of paddock or something so that the horses aren't in their stalls all day every day? Leof's not having that kind of time to take all the horses out and exercise them as much as I imagine they should be (and if he's supposed to, I sure haven't been writing that in...).

[JennyHallu]

I figured for day laborers their 'writers' would be those directing the crews. As these would be crews rather than individual characters (and, come to think of it, probably most of them don't even need housing, but live in the city) I didn't see that there would be a problem with them being NPCs. After all, they ought to be too busy working to have time to socialize with the residents

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'll take on a maid or two. At least one. I'll flesh her out at work and post up a mini-bio. She won't be a big player, but she'll at least be around with a writer.