Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Celuien]

Post edited, as promised.

Oh, and Nogrod, I'll second lmp:

Let the conflict ensue!

Though Garstan, like his author, is somewhat conflict averse, so don't expect him to particularly up for a fight.

[Nogrod]

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...

lmp:
I hope Eodwine turned out okay enough. I made that part in somewhat in a hurry, but will correct everything you want me to, surely.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...

I'm sure he'll feel like at least explaining it to Stigend. Whether the fire-thing stays or not, though, will be up for debate.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm sure he'll feel like at least explaining it to Stigend. Whether the fire-thing stays or not, though, will be up for debate.

Has anyone a clue, whether the kind of metal sheet -things that they put between the ovens and the walls just to prevent fires were already in use those times? In any given actual or fictional world we are trying to construct here...

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Has anyone a clue, whether the kind of metal sheet -things that they put between the ovens and the walls just to prevent fires were already in use those times? In any given actual or fictional world we are trying to construct here...

It seems that I've been drawn back into reseaching again. I looked around, but couldn't find specifics on oven construction. I did find some information that supports Garstan's plan, though.

Medieval kitchen

More details on Early English Architecture, including a brief section on the kitchen.

Quoted here:

At Goltho in Lincolnshire the fortified burh of a wealthy lord has been excavated. It comprised a bow-sided timber hall nearly 25 m (82 feet) long and nearly 10 m wide (32.8 feet); a smaller kitchen building set well away from the hall for fire protection; a long narrow weaving shed about 20 m long where the women of the burh would have stood at their looms for the daily labour of wool weaving; and a separate bower building.

Private defended burhs of wealthy thegns, ealdorman, and nobles could include both large timber halls and smaller stone buildings. The remains of a Saxon masonry building of 2.4 m (8 feet) tall stone walls have been excavated at Eynsford castle, Kent. A wood framed roof may have rested upon the walls, or they may have carried another wood-framed story above. This building had an excavated floor some 1.5 m (5 feet) below the ground, and was surrounded by a ditch 5 m (16 feet) wide and 3 m (10 feet) deep. Heavily fortified as it was it may have housed a powerful lord. On Lower Brook Street in Winchester was found the remains of a square stone building of at least two stories dating from about 800. It is part of a high status, secular, residential homestead.

At Sulgrave, Northamptonshire excavations have revealed the presence of a large 10th c timber hall, another lordly residence. Like many great halls it was constructed of closely set vertical timbers. At Sulgrave these sat upon a laid, mortar-less stone foundation. At one end of the great hall was a partition which led to a smaller room - perhaps a store room. A smaller detached timber building, which may have been a kitchen, was built outside. Another building on the site had stone walls more than 2 m (6 1/2') high - possibly a strong room or tower.

Anyone else have information on medieval construction methods?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

It seems that I've been drawn back into reseaching again.
I did find some information that supports Garstan's plan, though.

the fortified burh of a wealthy lord... Private defended burhs of wealthy thegns, ealdorman, and nobles ... Heavily fortified as it was it may have housed a powerful lord. ...It is part of a high status, secular, residential homestead.
...another lordly residence.

I hope Garstan will stick to this. (Although all of those references didn't mention a separate kitchen... )

As I said to Celuien in a PM, "I surely see the idea behind the fire-protection. In a big castle with a wealthy lord you could afford that kind of things, and surely the well-being of their kitchen personnel was not nearest to their hearts, I suppose... Stigend surely thinks about the matter from his point of view: looking at the conditions of people having to do the work in the buildings and how to build economically..."

And then I started thinking whether I have just contradicted myself with my last post...

Yes, I know, that at least in Northern Europe the poor and the middle-class built their ovens tightly to the walls to give maximum warmth up to the 20th century. But clearly the wood had been free on the earlier times at least... So it must be labour-costly then? Just imagine the amounts of firewood needed in a Mead Hall! Well, as I said earlier, the Eorl need not to worry, what his subordinates do as they cost him the same every day, but surely if other projects are hampered by just getting enough firewood - or if it is a sparser commodity (you have to make long trips to find it or something) - it would be wise to try to be economical in that way.

But surely: Stigend's way of looking at the question stems from his experience of how things are done where he has been working. Garstan probably has a better argument if we look at it from the perspective of the safety. Stigend just looks at labour costs and the comfort of the people working in the buildings they construct...

Haa! This is fun! So far I have just managed with general education, but soon I will have to start searching for additional information too... A nice little disagreement between different schools of the building-trade!

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I hope Garstan will stick to this. (Although all of those references didn't mention a separate kitchen... )

No. Not all of them did. Just the ones that were talking about safety precautions taken by the wealthy.

I'm working on a post now.