Elves socioeconomic system.

[Anguirel]

Kuru has the right of it regarding what I meant by "Kings"-I was just talking about all the Elven rulers in First Age Beleriand.

Kuru's feudalism vs absolutism question requires us to think about the other classes of Elven society, less well-documented classes, beyond Kings. I think this might be an interesting line of thought.

Well, let's think about the higher nobility, insofar as we know about them. The scantily described commoners can be dealt with, appropriately, later...

I discount royal cadets without realms of their own, like Maeglin, who acted as counsellors-they might be said to have power by virtue of regal blood.

In Gondolin, we have, thanks to the Fall of Gondolin, an extremely well-documented Elven elite (if sometimes of debatable canon status). Egalmoth, Rog, Glorfindel and even Tuor possess considerable authority below the King. Is this delegation of royal power? Maeglin's House was bound faster to him than to Turgon, but again that's a slightly different case. Basically Turgon seems to rule in Council, you might say, but always has the final decision. The Houses of Gondolin seem not unlike feudal entities.

So if Gondolin can be taken as typical, feudalism does seem to be some kind of norm. As Gondolin is supposed to reflect Tirion, blueprint of Noldor culture...I'd say that's all pretty good grounds for suspecting a feudal system.

In Nargothrond a similar model is traceable. We see hints of nobles-Edrahil, who I think is described as Finrod's steward at some point; Guilin, Gwindor and Gelmir, a noble family notable enough to be linked in marriage to the Blood Royal; and the nameless adherents of Celegorm and Curufin. The Council here actually has sufficient power to defy the King. It's almost more oligarchic than feudal-and certainly not absolutist.

However, I can see Hithlum and the Feanorion realms being run on far more authoritarian, regal, Homeric lines. We hear little of notable nobles serving Feanor's sons, except for perhaps occasional lines about "folk of Caranthir" or "servants of Celegorm". The blazing personalities of the Seven seem to eclipse those around them.

[Lalwendë]

Thinking about the Noldor coming over to Beleriand, it made sense for some of the sons and brothers to go off and found their own realms. Here was a country that to all intents and purposes was empty, save for a few resident Moriquendi and Dwarves (but they would not stand in the way of those who had 'seen the Light' ). There was a surfeit of strong minded noble Elves. And last but not least, there was a Morgothian horde to be challenged.

It would not have made sense to pick out the loftiest Elf Lord and have him rule one realm where all these Elves could live, even if they had wanted it to be so. The population was scattered, and strategically placed to challenge Morgoth or to hide from his minions in safety. In addition, the 'client realms' gave those Elves who were of noble birth but not in line to be top dog the opportunity to flex muscles and not be in as much conflict with each other had they been in one realm. I can imagine such a situation would have led to intrigue and murder.

I do wonder how convenient it was for some of the Noldor that Morgoth stole the Silmarils and that Feanor swore to retrieve them. Certainly in Valinor there was little if any chance for Elves to exercise power or independence, but in Beleriand they were free to explore the possibilities. Even Galadriel owned that in Middle-earth she was powerful and that in Valinor she would 'diminish'; she spent many years being a big fish in a small pond, whereas in Valinor she would probably be quite lowly in status compared to the Vanyar and the Valar.

[Kuruharan]

Basically Turgon seems to rule in Council, you might say, but always has the final decision. The Houses of Gondolin seem not unlike feudal entities.

So if Gondolin can be taken as typical, feudalism does seem to be some kind of norm. As Gondolin is supposed to reflect Tirion, blueprint of Noldor culture...I'd say that's all pretty good grounds for suspecting a feudal system.

-and-

However, I can see Hithlum and the Feanorion realms being run on far more authoritarian, regal, Homeric lines.

Interesting you would say this because Gondolin and Nargothrond do not seem conducive to feudal systems whereas Hithlum and the Feanorian realms do i.e. there doesn't seem to be land available for fiefs and vassalage in Gondolin and Nargothrond (who now beyond the Western Seas have passed away...I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist ). In Hithlum and the Feanorian realms there seems to have been plenty of land.

Perhaps Tolkien wasn't conceiving of this system as being exactly "feudal" in the way we traditionally think of it.

[radagastly]

I've been wondering some things, but haven't posted because I'm still at work and being on here is a bit of a no-no. But I can't resist, though this may be a bit of a tangent.

I keep thinking as I read this thread, what role Osanwe might play in the governing of an Elvish kingdom. Would not the leader with the greatest insight into the hearts and minds of his people be looked upon as the "wisest" or "greatest" and, as such, be the de-facto leader, worthy of at least some degree of obedience (or at least deference, as is most often the case in politics)? Would that insight inform and guide his decisions, lending approval, and therefore support, for his decisions and his position as leader? Does Osanwe work that way? Can that level of control or talent be inherited from parent to child, creating a "default" sort of royal family, later perhaps imitated by men?

Just wondering whether Tolkien saw this factor as having a significant impact on the social structure of the kingdoms of Beleriand.

[mormegil]

Another situation which has some documented leadership style and format was the council of Elrond. Certainly Elrond was the 'ruler' so to speak of Imladris, but yet he called counselors to the meeting, and their opinion was given due weight and consideration.

However the council of Elrond is a bit problematic as an example of Elvish rule in that it was a council that involved and pertained to all 'free people of Middle-earth'. Therefore Gandalf, Boromir, Gloin and others opinions were weighed. It's interesting too to note that Legolas and a contigent of Mirkwood was there to represent those Elves. 'International Elvish politics' so to speak is also fascinating. Thinking of how various Elf factions interacted both in the First, Second and Third age. Most notably in the third age the 'White Council' and in the First age the alliance formed and broken during the war with Morgoth.

[mark12_30]

Curve ball here-- from someone who always dodged political science.

Aiwendil makes a very interesting point in his essay on Elvish music. To crudely paraphrase the whole essay: Elvish music does not "evolve", it "devolves". (Galadriel makes a general reference, saying that when the Rings are destroyed, the elves who remain in Middle-Earth will fade to a rustic folk of wood and dell.) They start strong, and then dwindle and fade. Furthermore it was their job to prepare the earth for men-- and men eventually take over.

Aiwendil made this point quite well regarding elvish music-- see Aiwendil's magnificent essay.... (edit: argh, the link requires a login-- I don't remember needing to do that before?)

I wonder-- combining the Osanwe point with the "devolving" idea. In the early years, when the elves were fewer in number, osanwe would have provided a formidable method of understanding and guiding a group of people. A harmoniously-minded elf with peaceable intentions could have used osanwe to keep the realm peaceful and prosperous indeed. Even if you did have a king-- and it seems that they started with First, Second and Third, three 'kings', so to speak-- if they majored in osanwe, what need would there be for feudal attitudes, or dictatorial attitudes, or what have you?

If the society then got used to the idea of single leaders of the kingly type (of which I'm not yet convinced, wondering about a more clannish leadership instead-- and even kings keep counsellors and councils-- but to continue) then as osanwe was used less (devolving), more crude methods of government would have been required.

[Elmo]

Turgon of Gondolin

And here I am King; and whether you will it or will it not, my doom is law