What does it mean to Write in the Spirit of Tolkien?

[Lalaith]

It seems that all the men who ended up marrying in LotR, did NOT, as a matter of fact, idealize the main woman in their lives.

Yes, you're right, I hadn't thought of that. Although I'm not sure we actually know whether or not Aragorn idealised Arwen before they married...
The other thing I was thinking about was the way that the idealised women in Tolkien behaved to the men idolising them. Even though they are - presumably - good and honourable women, they blithely accept the worship as their due, they don't have a problem with it. Compare this to the good and honourable Aragorn's shame at being worshipped by Eowyn.
And I also agree with you about this:

because righteousness is, well, passé (which is a real shame).

It is quite possible for good men to be interesting as well as bad ones. But to go back to Romantics, the trend of which you speak is linked to righteousness, in that it is about having and pursuing an ideal, and probably why I had to go back to the Victorians to come up with Romantic men (idealisers of women) created by female writers. I've come up with a couple of examples that you're welcome to knock down if you don't think they fit. (Particularly as I still need a better definition from you of what a Romantic man is! Is Gatsby one, for example? He's certainly not righteous...)

Anyway, what do you reckon about Adam Bede (George Eliot)? Also Tertius in Middlemarch...And I'm pretty sure Mrs Gaskell had a couple of similar types but I can't remember them right now... One thing though, these female-created idealists typically idealise the wrong women.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The other thing I was thinking about was the way that the idealised women in Tolkien behaved to the men idolising them. Even though they are - presumably - good and honourable women, they blithely accept the worship as their due, they don't have a problem with it. Compare this to the good and honourable Aragorn's shame at being worshipped by Eowyn.

IMO-- thie difference between Gimli and Frodo's idolatry , on the one hand, and Eowyn's idolatry , on the other, was that Eowyn reasonably hoped that Aragorn would fall in love with her, and marry her. And she pursued him with that in mind, to the point that others remarked about it (even Faramir.) Aragorn rebuffed her because he saw that she was serious about him and had marital hopes.

Frodo and Gimli had no such illusions, but only adored from afar. Hence they were no threat to Goldberry's marriage, Galadriel's marriage, or even Arwen's engagement.

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EDIT, Postscript, etc etc: Before going back and reviewing the first page, I decided I'd brainstorm my own "spirit of TOlkien" requirements, and for a first-shot quickie, I wrote these:

--Eucatastrophe.
--Revelation.
--Honor, valor, courage, humility, good manners, honesty.
--Nasssssty villians (what I find the most difficult.)
--Both detail and sweep.
--The open reader is changed.

[Child of the 7th Age]

--Eucatastrophe.
--Revelation.
--Honor, valor, courage, humility, good manners, honesty.
--Nasssssty villians (what I find the most difficult.)
--Both detail and sweep.
--The open reader is changed.

An interesting list, Helen , especially the last one, which is difficult but something that ideally should happen. While I have no trouble agreeing with your points, where I personally have problems is deciding how different certain elements of the story can be and yet still qualify as writing in the spirit of Tolkien. In other words, this list is meaningful not only for what is on it but also for what is not.

Nogrod brought up considerations of style a while back, mentioning posters who write with a distinct medieval flavor versus those who consciously express themselves in a decidedly "modern" tone. It's a point worth exploring. My personal preference is not to disqualify a work merely because of style. LotR had vast differences in style and voice from one chapter or episode to the next. If you add Hobbit and Silm into the equation, the differences become even more pronounced. JRRT frequently had to defend himself against critics who did not like this. At the very least we can say that the author shifted from voice to voice depending on his audience, the particular character involved, or the subject he was discussing. For that reason alone, I would not feel comfortable adding stylistic requirements to your list.

There is another question that's bothered me a long time. One factor that divides even very good fanfiction and rpgs from the original is the way the characters' internal lives are portrayed. Very rarely does Tolkien let us get into the head of a particular individual. More frequently, we see that character through another's eyes. (There are exceptions, but these are rare.)

Sometimes, when outside people ask me what I write on the Downs, I jokingly answer "Middle-earth soap operas". So many fanfiction works and rpgs, even those that are very well written, have a definite "angsty" flavor. There are a few exceptions--Mithadan comes to mind. But many of us do delight in plumbing internal depths, something which JRRT rarely did. So, anyone out there, do you think it is possible to craft angsty fantasy of this type (inside or outside of Middle-earth) that still qualifies as "being written in the spirit of Tolkien"?


Littlemanpoet - Thanks for the personal clarification. It was indeed helpful.
Whoops! I just crossposted with you.....