Battle of the Somme 90th Anniversary July 1st

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I don't doubt the probability that Tolkien senior had the dream described, or one very like it. I'm just trying to hedge my bets since we don't have his word for it. As for the dream describing real events, I was trying to demonstrate just how unlikely it was that J.R.R. Tolkien could have found himself in such a real-life situation. The character of his regiment, his own duties and the location of his battalion all point to this being a dream the details of which are built of waking impressions. The 17th Lancers cap badge is very distinctive, and could have been seen in a depot, training or simply a manual of regimental insignia, not to mention that the death's head is a natural symbol for death itself. German elite cavalry were perfectly logical figures of terror for a British infantryman of the First World War (had Tolkien been fighting under Wellington, they would probably have been French Chasseurs), and the basic nature of the dream tallies with what we know of Tolkien: his tendency to feel overwhelmed by circumstances and to feel that he was not equal to the challenges he faced. Even the temptation to fly from death is natural, given the situation. I was just trying to avoid drawing too many conclusions from a third-hand account remembered after so many years. There are shades of inaccuracy beyond simply making something up, which is how legends are created.

Naturally no disrespect intended to Rev. Waddington-Feather, just the apprentice academic flashing an evidential fin.

[davem]

Not sure how far we can get in the discussion. As I understand it it is a second- rather than a third-hand account, given in a letter by Michael to the Rev'd. It is quite likely a dream in origin. Family reminiscences can never really be proven. Tolkien did tend to draw from his experiences, whether of dream (the Atlantis dream) or reality, & use them as raw material for his creative pursuits. As I said, it is an odd thing to make up - especially as he was not speaking to an interviewer, or a stranger, but writing to a friend.

Certainly there are many things we will never know about Tolkien's wartime experiences. It may even be the case that Tolkien himself confused a nightmare with reality & himself believed it really happened & told Michael so.

Whatever, its an interesting piece of Tolkieniana at the least. I accept it as coming from Michael, as the Rev'd has a reputation to uphold & has no reason to invent it. Maybe when (if?) the diaries are published we will get more information on what actually happened.

If the letter from Michael states clearly that it actually happened & gives more background we will be able to re-assess at that time. Till then, in the words of the reporter in The Man who Shot Liberty Valance, 'When the Legend becomes fact, print the Legend'??

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Hmmmm-- no horse for combat; but with all that stuff to lug around (carrier pigeons, telephones, rolls of wiring?) perhaps he had regular access to a pack horse.

I think you'll find that the telephones and telegraph had been installed by sappers before the Lancashires went into the line and were a permanent fixture of the trench network. Carrier pigeons were an emergency measure: the battalion wouldn't have carried many, and may not have carried any at all. Equipment of that nature would in any case have been carried along with the general battalion stores, and it's unlikely that one subaltern would have had access to a personal horse. As I said, infantry tended to use pack horses and wagons for transporting heavy goods, not for riding, and pack-horses don't usually make good mounts. There's as much wish-fulfillment in dreaming of riding a horse when stuck in the most immobile war of recent times as there would be in dreaming one were waking up at home.

Davem: in terms of the psychological conclusions it's a third-hand account: J.R.R. Tolkien to Michael Tolkien to Rev. Waddington-Feather, with no indication of the passage of time between transmissions. What I've said about waking impressions was intended to point out how the subconscious mind might draw symbols from the milieu of the Western Front, later replaying them in sleep as the dream described by your source. I wouldn't suggest that Tolkien would have done anything so pointless as to make up a dream, but the memory can play tricks, and we don't know how long after the experience he told it to his son, and thus how far back Michael Tolkien was remembering. I don't think that anyone is actually inventing anything, I'm just not so sure how much could have been misremembered. Nonetheless, as you say, a fascinating piece of Tolkieniana. I wonder how often Michael Tolkien discussed dreams with his father, since we now have his descriptions of two of them.

[davem]

I'm not sure we can say that 'pack horses' wouldn't have made good mounts. By the time of the Somme the British army was taking any horses it could get, so its not too far fetched to imagine a trained hunter ending up as a pack horse.

Plus, Cavalry was very much present on the Somme (at least on the British side). Haig intended to use it.

War Committee minutes record: 'the horses out in France were of no use now. They were only there for prospective use when we had broken through. We were maintaining in France an enormous number of horses which were temporarily useless.' Haig disputed this - he explained to the British General Staff 'the advance was to be pressed eastward far enough to enable our cavalry to push through into the open country beyond the enemy's prepared lines of defence.'...

Horses were an ever visible feature of the battlefield. The highest British fatalities on the Western Front were the horses, of whom 58,274 were killed during the course of the war, at least 5,000 on the Somme, mostly by artillery fire. (From Somme by Martin Gilbert)

So the presence of Cavalry horses at least makes it possible that Tolkien could have gotten himself a mount. The only questions then are, would he have taken one & ridden out alone? Possibly for reconaissance. And, was it likely he would have encountered mounted German troops? I don't know. Its possible that if the British were using riders then so were the Germans - whatever the condition of the terrain a horse could still negotiate it better than a man on foot or a rider on a motorcycle & a rider would be faster & less noisy than a motorcyclist. One assumes that the Germans would want to be able to access any area where an Allied soldier could reach.

Which proves nothing at all beyond the possibility that the event could have happened.

[The Saucepan Man]

What puzzles me is how any soldier could have found themselves behind enemy lines on the Western Front, save as a result of becoming lost in the confusion of an assault or (in the later stages of the war) as a pilot shot down. Neither situation would have involved being on horseback.

The whole affair was one big stalemate for most of the war with neither side being able to break through the enemy lines and only occasional and modest territorial gains.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

What puzzles me is how any soldier could have found themselves behind enemy lines on the Western Front, save as a result of becoming lost in the confusion of an assault or (in the later stages of the war) as a pilot shot down. Neither situation would have involved being on horseback.

The whole affair was one big stalemate for most of the war with neither side being able to break through the enemy lines and only occasional and modest territorial gains.

Well, we don't know when the incident (if it actually happened, of course, rather than being a dream of Tolkien's) occurred. I don't see that Tolkien couldn't have found himself in territory which had been occupied by German troops temporarily ('hence behind their lines').

As to my last post:

I know I'm going to get picked up on this, because Squatter was speaking specifically about Infantry units, not Cavalry. The point is though, there was not a specific breed of horse which could be classified as 'pack horses' & a Hunter was possibly available to Tolkien. The fact that Haig intended to use cavalry & that so many of horses were killed means that conditions, though bad, were not so atrocious that horses could not be used.

All I'm saying is, while it was most likely a dream, as Squatter says, it could have happened

[Kuruharan]

Does anybody know how the Germans were securing their rearward areas at this point in the war?

I don't know (and unfortunately, don't have time to try and look it up now) but it seems like mounted patrols might not be entirely out of the question.

[davem]

Re: Dancing amid the Hemlocks.

Do we know when the 'Dancing' took place? Garth states it was in the Spring of 1917 (in the Encyclopedia article I linked to) but Richard C West in his essay 'Real World Myth in a Secondary World in the collection Tolkien the Medievalist, seems clear it took place in November 1917, & so questions whether it could have happened in exactly the way decribed - Roos is on the North Sea Coast & in November it would have been absolutely freezing. In a note to the essay West notes that he has recieved personal correspondence from Christina Scull to the effect that at that time of year there would not have been any flowers in bloom, & 'the weather would not have been conducive to dancing', & he therefore puts the whole thing down to Tolkien conflating a number of different incidents. West is drawing his date of November 1917 from Carpenter's biography (which is not too clear on the chronology of events).

What we have to say is that if the event is supposed to have taken place in November 1917 it didn't happen exactly as Tolkien says it did (no flowers & Edith dancing in an overcoat!)

Carpenter states the event took place after the birth of John in Nov 1917, while Garth in the article states it was in spring of 1917.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by davem

Re: Dancing amid the Hemlocks.



What we have to say is that if the event is supposed to have taken place in November 1917 it didn't happen exactly as Tolkien says it did (no flowers & Edith dancing in an overcoat!)

Carpenter states the event took place after the birth of John in Nov 1917, while Garth in the article states it was in spring of 1917.

Hmmmm... perhaps the event in the spring was the cause of the birth of John in November......

[davem]

http://sacnoths.blogspot.com/2007/07...-in-somme.html

[Lalwendë]

What an interesting find! We were so lucky that fate didn't have it in for Tolkien - we would never have known his name let alone anything else - and all that this entails such as no Downs, no friendships forged on Tolkien - I would not know davem, or any of you...that is a very sobering thought. How fates decades down the line can rest on something like that...