Tapestry of Dreams, Part 2 Discussion

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Elempi

If desiring and wanting to learn, are you willing to put up with Elempi offering revision advice?

Feel free to advise me, oh professorial one. I'm quite certain that being a student will never get old. I should warn you, though, that I'm the student who researches my teacher's interests so that I can learn fun things and provoke highly entertaining debates when I'm bored... you may regret the offer. Quite seriously though, if you can help me learn neat stuff and become a better writer for it, how could I possibly refuse?

By the way, my life is officially back to [as] normal [as it ever is]. I should be able to finish reading Tapestry within the next week... two at most.

[Nurumaiel]

lmp, I'm more than willing to take your advice! I'm very ignorant on the subject, but I do want to learn more.

A couple of questions...

Firstly, how far would you like it to extend? The dialogue of the characters, naturally... their thoughts as well? Just the writing in general?

Secondly, though Liornung is of Rohirric origin, would he have more of a range considering that he spends his time travelling from place to place, and would more than likely pick up on various dialects?

[littlemanpoet]

All of you are most gracious.

Originally Posted by Nurumaiel

A couple of questions...

Firstly, how far would you like it to extend? The dialogue of the characters, naturally... their thoughts as well? Just the writing in general?

Secondly, though Liornung is of Rohirric origin, would he have more of a range considering that he spends his time travelling from place to place, and would more than likely pick up on various dialects?

Liornung would have picked up a smattering of Gondorian, no doubt. So I can see him doing more with Latinate vocabulary.

EDIT: my reply continued:

It's really up to you, Nuru, whether you want Liornung to be "taken with language for its own sake", or be more rooted to his own speech with borrowings as he finds them useful. My own sense after reading the whole story again, is the latter, but he's your character.

As for your first question, the way I handle my posts is to allow myself a lot of freedom in narration, although I'm not going to start making analogies to nuclear weapons (unless Tharonwe does something to make it work!). Thoughts and dialogue are going to follow character speech tendencies very closely, however. I have purposely put a lot of Latinate in Tharonwe's mouth, (1) because he's evil, and great villains tend to talk in parsed speech, if you take my meaning; (2) because he's old, and the use of a large vocabulary reflects that. Erebemlin, being somewhat old, may have a larger vocabulary, but he has spent most of his years in Lorien, I'm guessing, and therefore his archaisms might follow a more strict pattern.

[Celuien]

Please go ahead and advise away, lmp. You know that I'm always ready to learn something new. And I'd appreciate the advice.

[Firefoot]

If Rugh starts using large vocabulary, slap me.

Seriously, though, I think it's worth shooting for.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Anyway...one last post...

If Gondorians are prone to "Latinate" then I guess it's okay that Bellyn leaned toward that in Tapestry 1 because she grew up in Gondor...

And, as far as maiming/losing senses/what-have-you...I guess whatever is needed by the story, but my one true preference is for Bella not to die. That's all.

Name (that you go by): Aylwen. Mallory.
Age: 17
Occupation: Student during the school year. Cashier at a clothing store.
Future Aspirations: Travel the world. Join the Peace Corps. Write a book. Run a marathon. Become an anthropologist or something. Learn more languages.
Goal in life: Change the world. No, really, I’m serious.
Short term goals: Finish packing for Costa Rica.
Passion: My family and friends. Writing, music, running, athletics in general, languages.
Hobbies: Swimming and playing guitar, playing soccer.
Famous for (brag about yourself): Being happy all the time, talking a lot, being excited about the little things, having more miles on my running shoes than on my car.
Fave book: The Silmarillion, The Phantom Tollbooth
Fave movie: The Fellowship of the Ring, Garden State, Beauty and the Beast, and Finding Nemo.
Fave sport: CROSS-COUNTRY. Running, not skiing. Soccer is a close second.
Fave store: Music stores.
Fave music: I like music so much. I guess I’d say most alternative rock and “indie” rock. I also love the Beatles and Pink Floyd. I’m a sucker for Beethoven, Irish folk music, and church hymns. I love Spanish music. I guess it would be easier to just say that I love music.
What you can't stand: People who don’t use their turn signal when they drive, people who step on the back of your flip flops while you’re walking.
What you plain dislike: Math. Country music. Rap (it’s not music).
Who you admire: I admire a lot of people…
What you most love to do: Run. Play music. Write. Hang out with friends. Ride bikes.
Your self-confessed flaws: I believe I am one of the most impatient people alive. I am loud – the stereo, my guitar amp…they’re on the highest volume level or not on at all. I talk a lot. I take things with a grain of salt which makes people angry sometimes when I don’t take things seriously. There are very few things I do take seriously (those things include church, running, music, and family).
What intrigues/fascinates you: People. The world. Fire. Languages. Thunderstorms.
What scares you: Bugs. Failure. Disappointing the people I love.
Quotation to live by: “Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.”


Value-specific:
What do you want most in a friend? Honesty, loyalty, sense of humor, consistency.
What do you want most in a teacher? Intelligence, understanding, open-mindedness.
What do you want most in an ally? Intelligence, trust, loyalty.
What do you want most in a team-mate? Speed, endurance, strength. Other than that? Sense of humor, reliability, determination, motivation.
What do you want people to remember most about you? That I never gave up.

Writer-specific:
Your favorite work you've written so far: Mm. Well, I sure did like that short story I co-wrote in my freshman creative writing class. That was a good one.
Your favorite character so far: I love them all.
What you plan to write soon: I'll write a lot about my trip in Costa Rica.
What inspires you to write: People. Life. Music.
What makes your writing stall: Thinking that it’s not good enough, that it’s not right, that it’s not perfect, that no one will like it.
Do you get writers' block and how do you overcome it? I go for a long, long, long run. Or I go for a bike ride. Or I play some guitar. Then I come back and I’m okay again.

Middle-Earth specific:
Your favorite ME character(s)? Feanor and Sam.
What do you like about them? For an elf, Feanor is just so…so human. He is the dark side of every person…plus he’s fiery and passionate and determined – focused to the point of recklessness. Sam just reminds me of my best friend.
Your favorite moment(s) from the Trilogy? The very end…when Sam says, “Well, I’m back.”
Your favorite plot twist(s) from the Trilogy? I guess it’s not really a “twist,” but I love that the hobbits, even with everyone doubting them and laughing at them, changed their world. It is hope that maybe the average someone can change everything.
Looking at your personality as it is, what race do you belong to in Middle-Earth and why? Eh, I guess those silly hobbits. They’re short. They’re happy 24/7. They like to dance around. Need I say more?
What race would you *like* to belong to in Middle-Earth and why? Probably the elves. They’re very tall and I’d really like to know what the view is like from up there. I don’t think I could handle living forever though.
What place(s)would you live in Middle Earth and why? The Grey Havens. It sounds rainy and drizzly there, and I like the rain.
Where would you want to visit? Why? Near or Far Harad…it sounds like it’s a sandy, hot, dry, savannah wasteland. Sounds fun.
How would you travel? I run everywhere. Walking just isn’t fast enough.
Besides the usual camping & travel stuff, what single special item is in your knapsack and why? An MP3 player. Where would I be without my music?

So, right. I'll be back July 6th...hope I don't miss too much.

-Aylwen

[littlemanpoet]

There is a rather simple, if slightly artificial way, to get around the issue of the Translator Conceit: Roy Edwards, a character I created long before there was a Tapestry of Dreams rpg, is a 21st century Christian young man. He is currently dreaming Tapestry, in which he is dreaming himself as Imrazor. I shall call it the Dream Conceit. Roy aka Raefindan aka Imrazor is all three men at once, and this - ah - ahem - miracle of dreaming a reality, allows for the - ahem - transliteration of language according to the plan of those Powers that have concerned themselves with the goings on of Amroth, Nimrodel, and all those characters who have attached themselves thereto. As Roy/Raefindan has discovered finally on page 18, there is a Purpose for him to be dreaming what is apparently real, in which he apparently is indeed Roy, Raefindan, and Imrazor all at the same time, incarnated in some form of (dare I say it) trans(p)neumation, if you take my meaning. It is, in essence, a mystery, and language connections are transliterated just as Roy is himself trans(p)neumated. Like it or not, it's at least plausible ... especially to a Roman Rite Follower, don't you know.

EDIT: Okay, not simple.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

It is, in essence, a mystery, and language connections are transliterated just as Roy is himself trans(p)neumated.

Forgive a possibly stupid question, but...um, what exactly does that mean? I can't find trans(p)neumated in my dictionary. I thought I had a handle on what was happening with Roy because of the dream explanation, but is there something else that I should be aware of?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Forgive a possibly stupid question, but...um, what exactly does that mean? I can't find trans(p)neumated in my dictionary. I thought I had a handle on what was happening with Roy because of the dream explanation, but is there something else that I should be aware of?

I'm taking liberty with a certain Roman Rite doctrine (which may itself be offensive except that), I think the spiritual law actually does apply rather well to the issue at hand. Transubstantiation = the bread and wine remain bread and wine but become in Reality the body and blood of Christ. Just so, transliteration = the words remain what they were for the original speakers, but within Roy's dreaming, they become in Reality one with their Meanings. Trans(p)neumation = it's a dream but it's also Reality. Literally, "across" - "spirit" or "breath".

Which answers Formy's discomfort as well. It really is a dream, and it's also really Real. It's a spiritual principle borrowed from Roman Rite.

So Ædgar and Ædegard are quite purposeful. Just as Roy is Raefindan is Imrazor is quite purposeful. Truth be told, I intended the former whereas the latter happened to Roy within the story.

As for Ravion, Orual, if he's from Gondor the Latinate may be good; but remember also that it's a Numenorean who is going to speak really Latinate; Gondorians themselves are going to be more like Boromir than Faramir, if you understand me.

[Celuien]

I see, Elempi. Thanks for the explanation. You can probably imagine that I was rather mystified...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There is a rather simple, if slightly artificial way, to get around the issue of the Translator Conceit: Roy Edwards, a character I created long before there was a Tapestry of Dreams rpg, is a 21st century Christian young man. He is currently dreaming Tapestry, in which he is dreaming himself as Imrazor. I shall call it the Dream Conceit. Roy aka Raefindan aka Imrazor is all three men at once, and this - ah - ahem - miracle of dreaming a reality, allows for the - ahem - transliteration of language according to the plan of those Powers that have concerned themselves with the goings on of Amroth, Nimrodel, and all those characters who have attached themselves thereto. As Roy/Raefindan has discovered finally on page 18, there is a Purpose for him to be dreaming what is apparently real, in which he apparently is indeed Roy, Raefindan, and Imrazor all at the same time, incarnated in some form of (dare I say it) trans(p)neumation, if you take my meaning. It is, in essence, a mystery, and language connections are transliterated just as Roy is himself trans(p)neumated. Like it or not, it's at least plausible ... especially to a Roman Rite Follower, don't you know.

EDIT: Okay, not simple.

Well, if it works the way it is... don't change it on my account.

As far as I am concerned, the transliteration from Westron to English (or vice versa) is fully believable (well, within the context of the story). What I'm mainly taking issue with is that, as Raefindan, when Roy is hearing Rohirric, he is hearing not Anglo-Saxon- but Rohirric. Consequently, it shouldn't be possible for him to draw connections between Rohirric words and English ones. Really, it was the whole making a correlation between Edgar and Ædegard that drew my "ire" here.

Mind you, also... I'm not really a big fan of the whole "Raefindan is dreaming this" idea. For me it smacks too much of the film Wizard of Oz, in which the whole fantasy is explained away as having been "Dreamt". I think that I'm echoing the Professor in this rather queasy distaste. And, for the same reason: it upsets the idea that what is happening is REAL and FACT (of course it is neither, but it ought to FEIGN that). Even if it doesn't toy around with the reality of the Legendarium, I find it... disconcerting.... shall we say, to think that the whole reunion of Nimrodel and Amroth, the whole sibling relationship of Mellonin and Raefindan, the whole relationship of Roy and "Jorge", for that matter, becomes merely a "dream". And if Raefindan is merely dreaming it... it's almost as if it never happened.

I don't know... the queasiness I've got doesn't seem to translate well into words. I hope I'm not causing unwitting offence here.

Now, I don't have either Lost Road or The Notion Club papers at hand to compare with, so I tread into the realm of complete memory/speculation here, but I seem to recall the premise of Tolkien's timetravel being that they are PREFIGURED by dreaming of being people in the past, with the story to move on to them ACTUALLY being there.

Anyway, my whole issue here is merely a matter of personal taste, and if the consensus is that the situation, as it stands, is too embedded in the story to be ignored/amended in future meaning/ to be changed, then I can and will go along with the flow. I shall do as Bergil, and ignore any suggestion that was is happening is merely dream.

[Orual]

Aylwen brought this up, but just to ask outright: since we're connecting, if not equating, Gondorian with Latin, would Ravion get away with more Latinate wordings since his main dwelling is in Gondor? Just wondering how careful I need to be.

Either way, though, you know that I'm more than open to your advice, lmp--I am looking forward to it. I am in no way, shape, or form a linguist, and I want to make my writing as authentic and true to this piece as possible.