Battle of the Somme 90th Anniversary July 1st - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hilde Bracegirdle · 06-24-2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

In a wider literary context, the pattern of Tolkien's 'fairy-stories', in which ordinary people become heroes and experience 'eucatastrophic' resurgences of inspiration against a backdrop of deepening despair, provides a striking contrast to the ironic, disenchanted work of soldiers such as Wilfred Owen whose work is now seen as the epitome of First World War writing.

I can not quite express how deeply greatful I am to Tolkien for focusing on this theme. Not because they are more pleasant to think on, but because it is too easy to overlook in them in the midst of overwhelming despair! Thank you for sharing it, davem

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-26-2006, 05:23 AM

It should be borne in mind that when you remember the Somme you are remembering somewhere in the region of a million men of both sides who died in a sordid, muddy stalemate that dragged on for five months. By the end of the first day, British and Empire casualties alone totalled 19,240 dead and 38,230 wounded. I know that Bêthberry will thank me for mentioning the First Newfoundlanders, one of only two non-British units in the British sector, who entered the field with a Battalion strength of 801 and the following morning had 68 men fit for duty, the worst Battalion casualties of the day. The Tyneside Irish Brigade (34th Division) advanced more than a mile under heavy fire and were practically annihilated. Such is the butcher's bill for one day of a four-year war.

Our main interest, I suppose, is the British 29th Division ("The Incomparable Division"), which comprised the 86th, 87th and 88th Brigades. It was to the 86th Brigade that the First Battalion, the Lancashire Fusiliers was assigned. The 29th Division order of battle included the 16th Battalion, the Middlesex Regiment, which was excusively recruited from public (read extremely prestigious private) schools, but also such famous names as the King's Own Scottish Borderers, the Royal Fusiliers, the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, and the South Wales Borderers (formerly the 24th Foot, who defended Rorke's Drift). The division was to maintain the British flank, but like much of the British assault its attack was a failure. In fact it was the French XX Corps who made the only obvious gains, and the British units alongside them were the beneficiaries of their attack. The determination of the attackers can be seen in the fact that nine Victoria Crosses were later awarded for individual actions on that day, six of them posthumously. The most ever awarded for a single action was 20, for the Crimean battle of Great Redan in 1855.

By the end of the war, the Entente lines along the Somme had advanced by ten kilometres, at the cost of more than six-hundred thousand casualties. German casualties are generally estimated at around five-hundred thousand. Effectively for the sake of the distance from one side of London to the other an entire generation ceased to exist. Since volunteer Brigades, who selected only the best applicants, were used extensively, the loss of talent and promise is disproportionately high. Had the Lancashire Fusiliers been assigned to the Bapaume sector, or had his battalion been among the leaders of the advance, it is highly likely that J.R.R. Tolkien, or probably 2nd Lt. J. Tolkien, would have made no greater name in print than to appear in the Times Roll of Honour, but perhaps greater men died there who never had a chance to make their mark.

In these jingoistic times it's worth remembering that Britain in 1914 was nearing the end of a century of domestic peace, with burgeoning nationalist pride in the strength of her armed forces and a growing mistrust of foreigners. A massive mutual deterrant, delicate checks and balances and complicated diplomatic ties completely failed in the face of imperialistic paranoia and self-interest to prevent a war that ended not in peace, but in a twenty-year cease fire. We are lucky that the likes of Tolkien, Lewis, Siegfried Sassoon, Robert Graves and others survived, but a gifted poet in Wilfred Owen and a comic author who betters Wodehouse in H.H. Munro were cut off with their careers unfinished, and they are only two names among many. We should remember how near we came not to having the works we discuss here, but it's more important to remember what was actually lost and why. Obviously those who survived gave much thought to it, some to the difference between the ideal and reality of war, others, like Tolkien, considering the very nature of good and evil. Many arguments for pacifism and international co-operation were born in the aftermath, and even the seed of the United Nations was sown as the pieces were gathered up. That such world-shattering events should be tied up with the history of Middle-earth seems hardly surprising, and it's inevitable that when intelligent and sensitive people try to reason out a great horror something remarkable must happen. What ought to be surprising is that less in Tolkien's line did come out of it, and that we are so quick to forget the events themselves. I am reasonably sure that Tolkien never did, and he was only present at the front for a very short space.

davem · 07-01-2006, 04:51 AM

Lest we forget.

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/soldiers%20cemy.htm

Bêthberry · 07-01-2006, 06:12 AM

Thanks for the mention of the First Newfoundlanders, Squatter. At that time, Newfoundland was still a colony of Britain--it did not join the Canadian Confederation until 1949. Although July 1--once called Dominion Day and now Canada Day--is the offical day celebrating Confederation, Newfoundland still observes July 1 as a day of mourning and commemoration of the July 1 offensive at Beaumont Hamel. The first battalion of the Newfoundland Regiment lost two thirds of its men in one hour of shelling from German artillery. On a per capita basis, Newfoundland had the highest casualty rate of all the Allies. The repercussions of that loss, some say, cost Newfoundland its hopes of becoming an independent nation on its own.

At Notre Dame Cathedral I saw plaques commemorating the sacrifice of soldiers from both Newfoundland and Canada for World War I and World War II. I couldn't find anything at St. Paul's about any Canadian contributions, but there is a huge memorial to the American participation, which to me was bitterly ironic as the Americans were last in, so to speak (although this memorial is I think more for WWII). Canada was automatically included with Briain's declaration of war for WWI; however, the exact form of participation was decided by Canadians and the Canadian government. By the end of war the effort of her soldiers at Ypres, Regina Trench, Vimy Ridge, Passchendaele, and Mons won for Canada international status as an independent nation. Canada had a separate signature on the Verseilles Treaty. Nearly one out of every ten Canadians who fought did not return. A nation of eight million people had sent 619,636 men and women to the battles and 66,655 gave their lives.

The Somme accounts for 24,029 of those lost.

Newfoundland's contribution is told in David Macfarlane's new book, The Danger Tree, of which I have read just excerpts. Five of Macfarlane's great uncles went to war. Two were wounded. Three were killed. Almost every family on the Rock suffered similarly.

Lalwendë · 07-03-2006, 08:38 AM

Interesting article on the BBC site today about Tolkien & The Somme.

mark12_30 · 07-03-2006, 09:44 AM

Quote:

a walk at Roos in spring 1917 when Edith danced among the 'hemlocks' (cow-parsley).

COW-PARSLEY.....????

Weeds along the edge of a field? Not in the deep shadow of towering evergreens? (I always did wonder in what way towering evergreens could form "umbels.")

My image of Tinuviel's dance is forever changed.

Lalwendë · 07-03-2006, 01:20 PM

In fact it probably never happened at all in the way its described. If it was November then little if anything would be growing near the North Sea coast of Yorkshire, especially at Roos which is a bit windswept.

Cow Parsley would have been the most likely plant in such an area, and it would also be the prettiest as the only big plants like that are the toxic and pernicious Giant Hogweeds but these wouldn't have been very widespread weeds at all at that time. But even Cow Parsley is most definitely not in season in Yorkshire in November!

Personally I always imagined the hemlocks to be Giant Hogweed, but that's probably due to growing up with my dad who had a fascination for all kinds of giant weeds (like his 8-12 foot Scarisbrick Thistles).

Just to further shatter illusions, Roos is now quite a popular area for caravan parks.

Mithalwen · 07-03-2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

At Notre Dame Cathedral I saw plaques commemorating the sacrifice of soldiers from both Newfoundland and Canada for World War I and World War II. I couldn't find anything at St. Paul's about any Canadian contributions, but there is a huge memorial to the American participation, which to me was bitterly ironic as the Americans were last in, so to speak (although this memorial is I think more for WWII). Canada was automatically included with Briain's declaration of war

.

I watched the televised services with my dad (who served in WW2, for some of the time attached to the Vandoos who he credits with turning him into a proper soldier) - and he made sure I knew about the Canadians
(New Foundanders especially) . I am afraid the lack of recogniton then is proabably a legacy of colonialism but there is a memorial to the Canadian Soldiers who were stationed in the New Forest (where I live) in WW2 and the only immaculate part of the churchyard at Brockenhurst is the anzac section and special services are held each year for them. We don't forget them though neitherplace is as grand as St Pauls.

Mark this might help. Hemlock is Anglo saxon for border plant - and it isn't so bad. Very English.....

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/h/hemloc18.html

Bêthberry · 07-04-2006, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I watched the televised services with my dad (who served in WW2, for some of the time attached to the Vandoos who he credits with turning him into a proper soldier) - and he made sure I knew about the Canadians
(New Foundanders especially) . I am afraid the lack of recogniton then is proabably a legacy of colonialism but there is a memorial to the Canadian Soldiers who were stationed in the New Forest (where I live) in WW2 and the only immaculate part of the churchyard at Brockenhurst is the anzac section and special services are held each year for them. We don't forget them though neitherplace is as grand as St Pauls.

Ah, the 22nd. Interesting regiment!

Those interested in reading novels about the time might take a peak at Jane Urquhart's The Underpainter and The Stone Carvers.

I wonder about that entry. Were horses used by signal officers? Here's what the Wikipedia has on German uhlans:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

World War I
German Uhlans

In 1914 the Imperial German Army included nineteen Uhlan regiments, three of which were Guard regiments. The senior of these was Ulanen-Regiment Kaiser Alexander III. von Rusland which was first raised in 1745. All German Uhlan regiments wore Polish style czapkas and tunics with plastron fronts, both in coloured parade uniforms and the field grey service dress introduced in 1910. Because German hussar, dragoon and cuirassier regiments carried also carried lances in 1914 there was a tendency among their French and British opponents to describe all German cavalry as "uhlans". After seeing mounted action during the early weeks of World War I the Uhlan regiments were either dismounted to serve as "cavalry rifles" in the trenches of the Western Front, or transferred to the Eastern Front where more primitive conditions made it possible for horse cavalry to still play a useful role. All nineteen German Uhlan regiments were disbanded in 1918-19.

Would this mean they were not used at the Somme?

Also, I have never met a (Canadian) veteran from WWI or WWII who talks about German soldiers in those terms.

mark12_30 · 07-04-2006, 08:22 AM

I remember Squatter mentioning that as an officer Tolkien had a personal servant, to look after his horse and his tack, and his other items; and that Sam's character (and relationship to Frodo) was probably heavily based n this. ....Squatter?

The whole narrative, to me, has the aura of a dream. I can't imagine even a superb hunter making it through the trenches unharmed. But perhaps I have the wrong mental image of the situation.

06-26-2006, 05:23 AM	#2
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Remember regardless It should be borne in mind that when you remember the Somme you are remembering somewhere in the region of a million men of both sides who died in a sordid, muddy stalemate that dragged on for five months. By the end of the first day, British and Empire casualties alone totalled 19,240 dead and 38,230 wounded. I know that Bêthberry will thank me for mentioning the First Newfoundlanders, one of only two non-British units in the British sector, who entered the field with a Battalion strength of 801 and the following morning had 68 men fit for duty, the worst Battalion casualties of the day. The Tyneside Irish Brigade (34th Division) advanced more than a mile under heavy fire and were practically annihilated. Such is the butcher's bill for one day of a four-year war. Our main interest, I suppose, is the British 29th Division ("The Incomparable Division"), which comprised the 86th, 87th and 88th Brigades. It was to the 86th Brigade that the First Battalion, the Lancashire Fusiliers was assigned. The 29th Division order of battle included the 16th Battalion, the Middlesex Regiment, which was excusively recruited from public (read extremely prestigious private) schools, but also such famous names as the King's Own Scottish Borderers, the Royal Fusiliers, the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, and the South Wales Borderers (formerly the 24th Foot, who defended Rorke's Drift). The division was to maintain the British flank, but like much of the British assault its attack was a failure. In fact it was the French XX Corps who made the only obvious gains, and the British units alongside them were the beneficiaries of their attack. The determination of the attackers can be seen in the fact that nine Victoria Crosses were later awarded for individual actions on that day, six of them posthumously. The most ever awarded for a single action was 20, for the Crimean battle of Great Redan in 1855. By the end of the war, the Entente lines along the Somme had advanced by ten kilometres, at the cost of more than six-hundred thousand casualties. German casualties are generally estimated at around five-hundred thousand. Effectively for the sake of the distance from one side of London to the other an entire generation ceased to exist. Since volunteer Brigades, who selected only the best applicants, were used extensively, the loss of talent and promise is disproportionately high. Had the Lancashire Fusiliers been assigned to the Bapaume sector, or had his battalion been among the leaders of the advance, it is highly likely that J.R.R. Tolkien, or probably 2nd Lt. J. Tolkien, would have made no greater name in print than to appear in the Times Roll of Honour, but perhaps greater men died there who never had a chance to make their mark. In these jingoistic times it's worth remembering that Britain in 1914 was nearing the end of a century of domestic peace, with burgeoning nationalist pride in the strength of her armed forces and a growing mistrust of foreigners. A massive mutual deterrant, delicate checks and balances and complicated diplomatic ties completely failed in the face of imperialistic paranoia and self-interest to prevent a war that ended not in peace, but in a twenty-year cease fire. We are lucky that the likes of Tolkien, Lewis, Siegfried Sassoon, Robert Graves and others survived, but a gifted poet in Wilfred Owen and a comic author who betters Wodehouse in H.H. Munro were cut off with their careers unfinished, and they are only two names among many. We should remember how near we came not to having the works we discuss here, but it's more important to remember what was actually lost and why. Obviously those who survived gave much thought to it, some to the difference between the ideal and reality of war, others, like Tolkien, considering the very nature of good and evil. Many arguments for pacifism and international co-operation were born in the aftermath, and even the seed of the United Nations was sown as the pieces were gathered up. That such world-shattering events should be tied up with the history of Middle-earth seems hardly surprising, and it's inevitable that when intelligent and sensitive people try to reason out a great horror something remarkable must happen. What ought to be surprising is that less in Tolkien's line did come out of it, and that we are so quick to forget the events themselves. I am reasonably sure that Tolkien never did, and he was only present at the front for a very short space. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 06-26-2006 at 07:27 AM.

07-01-2006, 04:51 AM	#3
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Lest we forget. http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/soldiers%20cemy.htm Last edited by davem; 07-01-2006 at 05:07 AM.

07-01-2006, 06:12 AM	#4
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Thanks for the mention of the First Newfoundlanders, Squatter. At that time, Newfoundland was still a colony of Britain--it did not join the Canadian Confederation until 1949. Although July 1--once called Dominion Day and now Canada Day--is the offical day celebrating Confederation, Newfoundland still observes July 1 as a day of mourning and commemoration of the July 1 offensive at Beaumont Hamel. The first battalion of the Newfoundland Regiment lost two thirds of its men in one hour of shelling from German artillery. On a per capita basis, Newfoundland had the highest casualty rate of all the Allies. The repercussions of that loss, some say, cost Newfoundland its hopes of becoming an independent nation on its own. At Notre Dame Cathedral I saw plaques commemorating the sacrifice of soldiers from both Newfoundland and Canada for World War I and World War II. I couldn't find anything at St. Paul's about any Canadian contributions, but there is a huge memorial to the American participation, which to me was bitterly ironic as the Americans were last in, so to speak (although this memorial is I think more for WWII). Canada was automatically included with Briain's declaration of war for WWI; however, the exact form of participation was decided by Canadians and the Canadian government. By the end of war the effort of her soldiers at Ypres, Regina Trench, Vimy Ridge, Passchendaele, and Mons won for Canada international status as an independent nation. Canada had a separate signature on the Verseilles Treaty. Nearly one out of every ten Canadians who fought did not return. A nation of eight million people had sent 619,636 men and women to the battles and 66,655 gave their lives. The Somme accounts for 24,029 of those lost. Newfoundland's contribution is told in David Macfarlane's new book, The Danger Tree, of which I have read just excerpts. Five of Macfarlane's great uncles went to war. Two were wounded. Three were killed. Almost every family on the Rock suffered similarly. Last edited by Bêthberry; 07-01-2006 at 11:52 AM.

07-03-2006, 08:38 AM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Interesting article on the BBC site today about Tolkien & The Somme. __________________ Gordon's alive!

07-03-2006, 01:20 PM	#7
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	In fact it probably never happened at all in the way its described. If it was November then little if anything would be growing near the North Sea coast of Yorkshire, especially at Roos which is a bit windswept. Cow Parsley would have been the most likely plant in such an area, and it would also be the prettiest as the only big plants like that are the toxic and pernicious Giant Hogweeds but these wouldn't have been very widespread weeds at all at that time. But even Cow Parsley is most definitely not in season in Yorkshire in November! Personally I always imagined the hemlocks to be Giant Hogweed, but that's probably due to growing up with my dad who had a fascination for all kinds of giant weeds (like his 8-12 foot Scarisbrick Thistles). Just to further shatter illusions, Roos is now quite a popular area for caravan parks. __________________ Gordon's alive!

07-04-2006, 08:22 AM	#10
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	I remember Squatter mentioning that as an officer Tolkien had a personal servant, to look after his horse and his tack, and his other items; and that Sam's character (and relationship to Frodo) was probably heavily based n this. ....Squatter? The whole narrative, to me, has the aura of a dream. I can't imagine even a superb hunter making it through the trenches unharmed. But perhaps I have the wrong mental image of the situation. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

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