Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Second

[Anguirel]

Orome may not, strictly speaking, be a huntsman for fun. Neither is a Master of Fox Hounds; he has countryside to scour. But don't tell me Orome doesn't enjoy hunting. He definitely loves the bright boarspear for its sharpness.

We also see the Elvenking of the Hobbit first in a hunting and feasting context. It is an inarguable fact that many Elves are not wetly "in tune with nature" but pursuers and hunters of prowess. Were they not, it would be a betrayal of folk-tradition. The Great Hunt is at the heart of Faerie.

It is as impossible to reconcile the Valar with the modern anti-hunting movement as it is impossible to reconcile the Hobbitry with the modern anti-smoking movement.

My guess is that the Quendi gloried in chasing the peculiar, cunning bearded wild kelvar for the sheer joy of it.

[Kuruharan]

Phantom – I’m afraid you seem to have entirely missed the point of post #15. How did the Petty-Dwarves attack the Elves? What did they use? Fists? Teeth? I find it hard to believe that a race that “from the first days of their Fathers they had marvelous skill with metals” would not be using metal weapons in their attacks. Metal weapons=Higher intellectual capacity than beasts.

I’m not blaming the Elves for what they did (unless, of course, they made the Petty-Dwarves dinner ). However, I am saying they were rather dumb for not putting two and two together. (I think it may also be possible that Tolkien didn't totally think this bit out).

Formendacil –

So there was no chance of encountering these creatures by day...

True, but the Elves would have had ample opportunity to inspect the bodies of those they killed and whatever their victims happened to be carrying.

Macalaure –

I cannot believe they needed to hunt because of the food

They may not have needed to hunt for food, but you can bet that they spent at least some time hunting things they intended to eat. And Valinor was heaven on earth. Middle-earth wasn’t.

[the phantom]

How did the Petty-Dwarves attack the Elves? What did they use? Fists? Teeth? I find it hard to believe that a race that “from the first days of their Fathers they had marvelous skill with metals” would not be using metal weapons in their attacks. Metal weapons=Higher intellectual capacity than beasts.

Just working from memory here, I recall that the morquendi knew zilch about metal. They had bows, and maybe spears- not swords, armor, and axes. So I don't really think the metal weapons of the dwarves would in any way cause the Elves to see a similarity between themselves and the Petty Dwarves. And similarity is important, of course, because Elves would naturally use themselves as the measuring stick of what an intelligent rational being was.

If an Elf came into contact with a Petty Dwarf for the first time and received a cut from an axe, the elf wouldn't think "Ooo, this little guy must be smart because he mined metal out of rock and used a furnace to melt it and forged a blade." Elves didn't know didly-squat about mining, furnaces, and forging. For all we know, the Elves might've thought "What the heck! That shiny silverish thing is sharp! What is it? Do those little things live somewhere where they grow from the ground? Is it dark magic? Do they eat rocks and poop out those shiny things?"

Anyway, you get my point.

And my second point is this- I wouldn't care if I knew the Petty Dwarves were rational beings. If they attack I'm going to defend myself and my family, and if they continue to be a problem (killing my friends, stealing my stuff, and so on) I'm going to track them down and kill them.

If you just up and attack me without notification or reason, then you have, in my mind, lost the right to be dealt with in a peaceful fashion. If you instigated the attack, the most I'd be willing to do is extend a hand of peace once, and once only, and if you tried to cut the hand off... well... I'm through with you. I'm hunting down every last one of you in order to prevent you from doing any further harm to me or my people.

It's all basic survival.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Kuru

How did the Petty-Dwarves attack the Elves? What did they use? Fists? Teeth? I find it hard to believe that a race that “from the first days of their Fathers they had marvelous skill with metals” would not be using metal weapons in their attacks. Metal weapons=Higher intellectual capacity than beasts.

The note in H-XI mentions that the Elves recognized the great Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost as Incarnates by their "skill in many crafts" and their ability to learn Elvish for "purposes of traffic". It might be inferred from this that the Petty-Dwarves were less skillful -- which squares with the idea (from the same source) that the Petty-Dwarves were the descendants of outcasts from mainstream Dwarven society: the "deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious". So they must have looked freakish even by Dwarf standards, where all the hot chicks wear beards. I imagine an Elf might feel compelled to put an arrow through one out of sheer aesthetic outrage.

Also, the Elves did not class the Petty-Dwarves as "Naugrim" even after discovering the relationship, so the quote you mentioned sorta doesn't cover them in the whole skilled-in-the-metallurgical-arts thing. Based on the evidence, we might suppose that the Petty-Dwarves lived in a considerably more primitive fashion than their slightly taller cousins.

[Kuruharan]

Just working from memory here, I recall that the morquendi knew zilch about metal. They had bows, and maybe spears- not swords, armor, and axes.
-the phantom

So even the Petty-Dwarves were more technically advanced than the Elves!

Learn something new everyday.

So I don't really think the metal weapons of the dwarves would in any way cause the Elves to see a similarity between themselves and the Petty Dwarves.
-the phantom

If they had stopped to ponder for a moment, they would have had a thought process similar to..."Hey, this here seems to be a tool of some kind and it appears to be made of something we don't have a whole lot of experience with. Animals don't build tools (notice I said "build" and not "use" to prevent somebody tossing the chimpanzees at me). We probably have something completely different on our hands! P.S. These funny creatures seem to be wearing things."

Also, the Elves did not class the Petty-Dwarves as "Naugrim" even after discovering the relationship, so the quote you mentioned sorta doesn't cover them in the whole skilled-in-the-metallurgical-arts thing.
- Mister Underhill

I'm afraid that I don't agree on this point. What the Elves thought of the matter (even after discovering what the Petty-Dwarves were) I believe is irrelevant to the Petty-Dwarves skill in metallurgy. I'm perfectly willing to concede that the Petty-Dwarves were probably not as skilled as regular Dwarves (in fact, it almost necessarily follows) but that does not imply they were unskilled. I also don't think that the Elves would have been in a position to form an accurate assessment on that matter. I think that the Elves not referring to them as "Naugrim" is probably due to the influence of the Dwarves themselves who likely would not have taken kindly to it.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Kuru

Animals don't build tools (notice I said "build" and not "use" to prevent somebody tossing the chimpanzees at me).

This is missing the point again -- namely, that simple tool-building (even if we suppose that the Petty-Dwarves retained some skill in this art) isn't enough to distinguish Incarnate from not. Orcs, for instance, weren't animals in the sense that we think of animals -- but were presumably ripe for being made Elvish pincushions of whenever and wherever they were encountered. I would imagine the Elves progressed rapidly from their evaluation of "cunning two-legged animals" to "believing them to be related to Orcs and creatures of Morgoth" (if indeed there was any meaningful difference between the two evaluations for them).

Originally Posted by Kuru

I think that the Elves not referring to them as "Naugrim" is probably due to the influence of the Dwarves themselves who likely would not have taken kindly to it.

Well, maybe... and then again maybe not. According to H-XI, though the great Dwarves despised the Petty-Dwarves, "they still acknowledged their kinship and resented any injuries done to them. [...] it was one of their grievances against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin." It seems unlikely that the Elvish naming was done out of any special consideration for Dwarvish feelings one way or the other.

In any case, the implication seems to be that the Petty-Dwarves lived "in caves" like animals, or at least like Orcs. And if we accept that they were mistaken for animals, and hunted as animals by the Elves, then... well, you know the saying, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...? There isn't much evidence to support the notion of Petty-Dwarves as only slightly less sophisticated than the great Dwarves.

On the other hand, there are contradictions here, and I think you're ultimately right that, as you mentioned a few posts back, Tolkien never brought this Petty-Dwarf stuff into a finished, consistent form.