The Fellowship of the Fourth Age: A New Beginning Planning Thread

[Durelin]

Since I find it easier to post (maybe because all I have to do is scroll down to look at the proposal, and I'm lazy), I'll go ahead and do so...

Wonderful job, Child! Really, that's an excellent idea. By pulling the story away from the center of things, we can possibly avoid the need for too many characters and thus too many players... It narrows the vision of the plot, but really this is a plot that better incorporates all the things we wanted the game to, and I think will make for a interesting story. Journeys always do.

I find this:

they manage to establish two new communities in the general region of _________, or decide that they have no choice but to go to war with each other.

Very interesting. I'm not one for happy endings, so I of course immediately started thinking about how moving it would be to have them end up going to war with each other after all that they endured 'together'...and go right back to what they were trying to escape from in the first place. Perhaps that will stop them from getting violent, though.

I like the idea of keeping the ex-slaves in there, as I think it would be hard to ignore their presence, even though the story's scope is smaller. Would it be possible that the small group of ex-slaves that the escapees meet up with incited and/or aided in the rebellion? Their small group would be even smaller from those they lost in the fighting, and they would have no reason to continue any fights themselves.

Also, the way things are shaping up, I'm thinking that the idea of Orc families might possibly fit. I'm not sure, though. Would it be families that would be escaping, or is it more of an 'every man for himself' kind of deal? Perhaps bits and pieces of families is what we'd end up with (you're probably already way ahead of me here), and I think that's certainly do-able. For the Orcs, this would mean we'd ease everyone into the idea that Orcs have families, without tossing on them ma and pa and babies...

Hmm... I was just wondering something: would cooled lava from Mt. Doom have the same kind of fertility that it does in the 'real world'?

That's just my bit for now...I'll look over things more and be back!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Durelin,

I am not sure about the ending. I don't think I'd want to make it a cycle with absolutely no real change in any of the characters from beginning till end. Surely there would be some evidence of change in individuals, but I also agree that there would not be an automatic happy ending where everything falls neatly into place. Perhaps there is a split within the Orcs with a few characters potentially able to make that shift in attitude, and others not at all? Possibly there would be fighting between the Orcs themselves at some point near the end after they reach their destination?

Have you ever read Light in the Forest by Conrad Richter? (I know this seems off topic but bear with me.) It's a story about a young white settler who was captured and raised by Indians. He has strong Indian ties and identity, an Indian family he loves. At the beginning of the story, the U.S. army forces all the captives in his area to return to their orginal white families, whom they've not seen for many years. After unwillingly living with the white family for some time, the boy finds that he can not look at all whites with equal disdain: he hates some who are bigoted and ugly, but has mixed feelings about others. Moreover, although basically Indian in values and perspective, he develops some real feeling for his own white brother.

He does not recognize what has happened to him at first, but he is increasingly straddled between two worlds. He prefers Indian culture and lifestyle and hates the way some whites have victimized his people. Yet when he manages to return to his Indian father, the young man can not accept the fact that the Indians plan an ambush of a family where a boy who looks very much like his own white brother would have been killed. He warns the white family as the ambush is about to occur and lets them escape, an act of betrayal his Indian father can not accept. The Indians let him live but he is forced to leave his Indian family and community forever. At the same time, he cannot return to the white settlers because he has attacked and possibly killed someone in that community who was a real bigot. At the end of the story, he is forced to wander off on his own without family or community.

Yet there is not total bleakness even in this sad scenario. At least one young man has managed to see beyond the sterile, deadly fighting of whites and Indians and recognize that change in attitudes is possible. We have no idea what happens to this boy as he sets off on his own on the last page of the book.

I guess that I see that potential for personal tragedy and an unresolved ending in this story. If one or two Orcs or Orc families would have changed their attitudes even slightly, what would have happened to them? They would no longer fit into one culture or the other. Might one Orc or Orc family have made the decision to stick with or near the slaves? Would another simply disappear in the night, unable to fit into either culture? Perhaps that is more realistic. Likely most Orcs could not have made the shift even that far and would have tried something like that ambush.

All this talk makes me interested in playing an Orc.

Even apart from Orcs, there's the attitudes of the slaves and ex-slaves and of members of the Fellowship itself. I think even there you would have a range of opinions and feelings about Orcs set in place even before the story begins. Even for them, change would have been difficult.

Anyways...... on to other things. I agree. Let's keep the ex-slaves then as well as the slaves.

I have to run and do some things now. I'll come back later and respond to you further and work on the proposal.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Interesting question: is the Fellowship of the Fourth Age limited to the original characters who are sent out by Aragorn from Minas Tirith, or is it rather the larger group who are searching for a new beginning: the representatives from the west, the Mannish slaves, and even those rebel Orcs who at least strike out on their own to look for something different?

We already have precedent from Tolkien for conflict wthin the Fellowship.....one member of the Fellowship threatening/attacking another as in Boromir/Frodo.

[Durelin]

Good points, and excellent example. The 'straddling of two worlds' is something that should definitely be kept in mind. And no, a circular path does not really accomplish what we want this game to.

The Orcs' story would certainly be an interesting one. They would be trying to 'fit in' to a culture, a culture more like each of the Free Peoples', and that culture would be trying to fit them in and would have loads of trouble trying to accept them as even allies at all. The desire to move on and escape from the violence and terrible conditions is the one thing that brings the two cultures together. Their goal is the same, but what will happen once that goal is reached? I guess that's a question we'll have to end the game with. (Look at me, already jumping to the end of things...)

Interesting question: is the Fellowship of the Fourth Age limited to the original characters who are sent out by Aragorn from Minas Tirith, or is it rather the larger group who are searching for a new beginning: the representatives from the west, the Mannish slaves, and even those rebel Orcs who at least strike out on their own to look for something different?

Very interesting indeed! I'd say the answer would be one that develops with the plot. The 'Fellowship of the Fourth Age' goes from being simply a small group sent by Aragorn, to broaden to including not only the slaves but also the rebel Orcs.

We already have precedent from Tolkien for conflict wthin the Fellowship.....one member of the Fellowship threatening/attacking another as in Boromir/Frodo.

There would be endless possibilities. Tension among the group will be scary high, I'd think. That an eruption of violence would be going back to what they were trying to escape might keep that at bay fairly well, but its likely it would still occur. Deserters would be even more likely. I can imagine at least one of the ex-slaves deciding to give up on the group after Orcs become a part of the 'Fellowship.' And, of course, an Orc giving up on both cultures.

[piosenniel]

Just checking in to the thread . . .

Between work and the World Cup games, I'm short on sleep and unable to make any coherent comments.

Hope to chime in tomorrow.

~*~ Pio

[Durelin]

Okay, I came up with a very very rough list of characters, just to get an idea of what we’re looking at. The lowest I thought we could go would be 11 players counting ourselves, which I suppose isn’t too bad. I tried to explore as many options as I could, so the list seems longer than it really is.

I divided the two groups into simply ‘From Gondor’ and ‘In Mordor,’ the former group meaning those sent by Aragorn, and the latter meaning those that are already in Mordor (ex-slaves, escapees, rebel Orcs).

Also, I’ve tentatively put myself in a spot for a Man character in the group from Gondor, and in a spot for an ex-slave character. I’m not sure at this point which one I would want as my main character and which one I would want as my secondary character (that also depends on what would work best for the game), so right now both are kind of in the list as ‘main characters.’

Oh, and a really important question: are we counting Dwarves in here at all? They’re even more reclusive than the elves, and so I think we have lots of reasons to doubt that a Dwarf would be among the group from Gondor, but I thought I’d leave it open to that possibility.

First, I listed the “Characters Needed,” not counting our characters in the totals. Then, I listed the totals including our characters. By our characters, I mean the two I plan on and your elf. Factoring in any other character you plan on playing should be easy.

And obviously we need to determine whether or not the gender of any of the characters is an issue (mainly with the Gondor crew).

Characters Needed

Main Characters

From Gondor

3 Men, male or female(?)
1 Hobbit, male or female(?)

OR

2 Men
1 Hobbit
1 Dwarf

OR

2 Men
1 Hobbit
1 Elf, male or female(?)

OR

1 Man
1 Hobbit
1 Elf
1 Dwarf

OR

2 Men
2 Hobbits

-----------------------

In Mordor

1 Ex-slave
2-3(?) Escapees - Men
2-3(?) Rebel Orcs

----------------------------------------------

Secondary Characters

In Mordor

We at least would need:
1-3 more Escapees – Men
1-2 more Rebel Orcs
1 more Ex-slave

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Characters
(Including owners’ characters)

Main Characters

From Gondor

4 Men, male or female(?) (3 + Durelin’s character)
1 Hobbit, male or female(?)
1 Elf (Lindir - Child of the 7th Age)

OR

3 Men (2 + Durelin’s character)
1 Hobbit
1 Dwarf
1 Elf (Lindir - Child of the 7th Age)

OR

3 Men, male or female (2 + Durelin’s character)
1 Hobbit
2 Elves (1 + Lindir - Child of the 7th Age)

OR

2 Men (1 + Durelin’s character)
1 Hobbit
2 Elves (1 + Lindir - Child of the 7th Age)
1 Dwarf

OR

3 Men (2 + Durelin’s character)
2 Hobbits

-----------------------

In Mordor

2 Ex-slaves (1 + Durelin’s character)
2-3(?) Escapees - Men
2 Rebel Orcs

----------------------------------------------

Additional Secondary Characters

In Mordor

We at least would need:
1-3 more Escapees – Men
1-2 more Rebel Orcs
1 more Ex-slave

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio -

Sounds good. I am not a World Cup fan myself but understand it can be quite addictive!

When you do go online tomorrow, could I borrow your knowledge of geography and maps, which has to be better than mine? Am I right in assuming that most of the plantations were in south Núrn near the Sea? Yes, I know it's salt water and not a real source of irrigation, but somehow I pictured them down there. What would be a reasonable direction for the refugees to go if they were aiming for a part of Mordor that would have fewer inhabitants and yet a location where the land would still be arable if proper measures are taken re water conservation, etc. ? My first thought was slightly north.

Would the southern fringes of the Plain of Gorgoroth be arable (the part that is slightly above where the mountains curve in--see pages 92-93 of Fonstad)? This is about 175 miles south of Mount Doom, I think. I have no personal knowledge of volcanos (unlike hurricanes), but from reading about St. Helen's it looks like the worst ash flow extended about 20 miles out from the mountain, the mudflows went out about 35 miles, and major damage was recorded in the rivers as far as 75 miles away. Presumably, Mount Doom is still giving off an occasional puff by the 6th year, 4th Age but nothing worse than that (much like St. Helen's in the 1980s when the dome began to reform).

I am assuming that, once Sauron died, there was a slight improvement in the climate (just as is described with the Shire) and rainfall would have been slightly more plentiful. From what I've read, ash and soot is actually not a bad thing for agriculture since it helps to conserve water.

Is this a realistic location for the new village, or would another work better?

You don't by any chance know of an online map of Mordor/Núrn?

Durelin,

The list looks great! Let me eyeball it further and give my reaction and any ideas later tonight.