Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Findegil]

Just to get this at the top: Are we still in progress?

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Aiwendil, just to let you know, Maedhros and I are still active in the background. After finishing the reworking of all texts that we have to the point we did bring them as jet, I did make a draft for "The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fal of Fingolfin" and Maedhros made a draft for "The Flight of the Noldor". But we both agreed that we will not start with this chapters if ever we get Beren and Lúthien finished, but rather go to "Of Valinor and the Two Trees" with the group discussion and then proced through the chapters of Sil in due order.

[Aiwendil]

Just to get this at the top: Are we still in progress?

Yes. I know it was a few weeks ago that I said I'd have more comments "in a day or so" or something like that. Things have been busier than I expected and I haven't gotten much of a chance to sit down and put things in order.

So - sorry for the unpredictability of my contributions, but I'm still here and I will have more comments up soon.

[Aiwendil]

I'm really sorry that I'm proceeding with this so slowly . . .

BL-EX-03: I agree that it must have been known that Beren fought with spiders in Nan Dungortheb. The real issue, I suppose, is only the ract that Tolkien did not include the passage in the revision. I must think on this a bit more, but for the moment, I'm still inclined not to use it.

BL-RG-09: I don't think that "and Varda" can be used to replace "Lord of Gods", unfortunately - they have the same total number of syllables, but "and Varda" is only one stress, whereas "Lord of Gods" is two. "Lord of Arda" is useable but not ideal.

BL-RG-11.5: Again, the problem is with the number of stresses - "not any might on Earth" has one too many.

BL-SL-03: This one's looking difficult to me. I don't see a solution as yet.

BL-EX-09: Well, I don't think the added "and" would help matters. But looking back at this, I think that your original suggestion is not bad.

BL-RG-21: This leaves a couplet that doesn’t rhyme (“thou” and “do”). But we could fix it by changing to the second person plural/formal:

And Beren muttered: 'BL-RG-21{Doth Gorthu}[Who are you]
{now}[to] hinder work that is to do?

This, however, still leaves the problem of the antecedent-less “him” that follows. This could be solved by changing the “him” to “you” in the following passage, but this alters the import of the dialogue somewhat.

It would be good if we could find a rhyme for “Sauron” or “Gorthaur” to use in line 2162, but I cannot come up with a good one. So I suppose my choice would be to go with “you” and change “him”.

BL-RG-22: One possibility that comes to mind is:

Yet not all unavailing were (2215)
BL-RG-22the spells {of Felagund; Gorthu}[; for Sauron did not know]
{neither} the name{s} nor purpose of his foe.

The removal of the “s” in “names” is possibly not necessary; I’m not sure whether it’s valid to use “foe” as a collective singular.

BL-RG-23: I think “Great” is fine here, as it can be read simply as an epithet. Isn’t there a general change Tavros > Tauron, though? I’ll check.

BL-RG-24: I think that the “had” can be included without doing much damage to the metre.

BL-RG-26: The extra “thus” actually damages the metre, I think. “Sauron’s packs him feared as Death” is fine.

BL-RG-27: Same thing here; I would go with “Sauron’s wolves of late of dared”.

BL-RG-28: Same here. All of these cases are illustrations of the fact that this is not really a metre based on syllables but rather on feet. Since “Sauron” is accented on the first syllable, it should really be scanned as the second syllable of the first foot, with the first syllable missing (alternatively one could view the whole line as trochaic rather than iambic and consider the last syllable to be missing).

BL-RG-30: We could try a rhyme on “rescue” in the second line but this would still be awkward, since “rescue” is stressed on the first syllable.

Another possibility is:

who Beren heeded not, and who
had little cause now to pursue

But this may be too much of a change.

BL-RG-32: How about:

{Thu}[Sauron] heard that voice, and {sudden} stood
wrapped in his cloak and sable hood

BL-RG-33: It might be possible to use:

that fed on flesh of Man and Elf
beneath the chair of BL-RG-33 {Thu} [Sauron] himself. (2715)

The metre there is not perfect but I think it’s passable.

BL-RG-34: I’m not sure we should leave out the “and”. It leaves a construction that is technically ungrammatical, though used often enough in written English. The “and” would not destroy the metre.

BL-RG-35: This looks good.

But some other interesiting question: since he left behind the “wolvish corpse” had Sauron given up for a moment his incarnation just to build himself a new body at once? If that’s true then why didn’t he do that before he gave Lúthien the “password”?

It does seem to me that Sauron was “killed” here (just as he was, again, in the fall of Numenor and for a third time at the Last Alliance). But you make a good point – why yield the password if he was going to “die” in any case?

[Findegil]

BL-EX-03: I am not adamant in using it. In my view it is a passage with further details worth the changes need to use it. But the case that Tolkien did not include it in the revision shades some doubts on it.
It would be good to have third voice in this, but if your doubts presists we can drop it.

BL-RG-09: What is then with: "of Manwë Lord of {Gods}[Eä]. Who calls"?

BL-RG-11.5: Alternativ:

{not}[no] might {of Gods}[on Earth], {not}[nor] moveless fate

BL-SL-03: A simple alternativ is to drop the couple:

So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their Lord obey{,
but sullen murmured that Finrod
nor yet his son were as a god}.
Then Felagund took off his crown
and at his feet he cast it down,

BL-EX-09: Not that I would not take my own first suggestion, but my be it can be bettered:

{One stopped and}[Edrahil then] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
and said: 'O king, to leave this town

BL-RG-21: I am okay with "you" and the change from "him" to "you" as well. The only rhyming word that comes to my mind for Gorthaur is power, but to introduce that would be a massiv change.

BL-RG-22: Very good! The question if the "s" in names is possible is beyond my knowldge of english orthography. But I would drop it simply to be on the save said.

BL-RG-23: You are rightthe history of the name was Tavros > Tauros > Tauron. I will add that to the list of General changes.

BL-RG-24: Okay, I will take the "had" back in.

BL-RG-26, BL-RG-27 & BL-EX-03: Agreed.

BL-RG-30: I like your suggestion. The use of pursue is a bit out of the maenstream meaning, but for me it works.

BL-RG-32 & BL-RG-33: Agreed.

BL-RG-34: Your feeling for the meter is much better then mine, so if you think the "and" can stand, I agree that it makes a beter gramatic for the sentence.

The issue of Saurons death:
I have to research this further. I remember dimly that this defeat was adress some were in a telling way, but as jet I cold not find it. In the moment my feeling is that Sauron was not killed and that therefore I would remove the cdead wolfish corpse.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

BL-RG-09: "Ea" and "Arda" are just about the same in terms of metre, I think (both are two syllables, stressed on the first). Is Manwe ever called "Lord of Ea"? I suppose it's a valid title, in any case, as Iluvatar dwells outside Ea.

BL-RG-11.5: I think this proposal is good.

BL-SL-03: Dropping the lines is a good solution, unless some better emendation can be found.

BL-EX-09: It has just occurred to me that I may be pronouncing "Edrahil" incorrectly (I must admit that Elvish stress-patterns are not one of my strong points). Is it stressed on the first or the second syllable? If it's the latter, then your original suggestion is perfectly good.

[Findegil]

BL-RG-09:

"Ea" and "Arda" are just about the same in terms of metre, I think (both are two syllables, stressed on the first). Is Manwe ever called "Lord of Ea"?

If it is metricaly the same I suppose "Arda" the more commen title and I do not find any mention of Manwë as Lord of Eä.

BL-EX-09: Sorry, but I have no idea at all how Edrahil is pronounced correctly in elvish. I pronounced it just out of the blue on the first syllable, but if that is correct I do not know.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

As I promised I made the research for the death of Sauron. Here is what I found, to have any significance to the question:

QS36; draft text B:

Then lest he be forced from the body unwillingly, which is a dire pain to such spirits, he yielded himself. And Luthien and Huan wrested from him the keys of the tower, and the spell that bound stone to stone.

Sil77:

But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'
Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Tar-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.

GA:

But Huan slew Draugluin, and when Sauron himself came forth in wolf-hame he overthrew him. Thus Sauron was constrained to yield up Tol-sirion, ere bereft of his bodily form he passed away as a black shadow into Taur-nu-Fuin.

LAY:

A vampire shape with pinions vast
screeching leaped from the ground, and passed,
its dark blood dripping on the trees;
and Huan neath him lifeless sees
a wolvish corpse for Thu had flown . . . . . (2820)
to Taur-na-Fuin, a new throne
and darker stronghold there to build.

That sounds for me like he was not killed by Huan. I rather see the story running along this line: Sauron was defeated by Huan in a way that he was not able give up his bodily form by his own will. But Huan had still the option to kill him. Since this was a “dire pain to such spirits” and would have hindered the building of a new body, Lúthien could utter the thread she did and so Sauron gave in and delivered the key and the word for the tower. When both had been proved true, Huan relinquished his grip a bit (by design or by being distracted). Not enough that Sauron could escape in bodily from, but enough that he could forsake his body by his own will.
I never thought that in doing so a Maiar would leaf a corpus behind, but it seems that this was an option, and I think that option was only possible at a coast, but granted Sauron a way of early escape.

Since we must not make the text clearer than it was, we need not change anything, but my be we should address this issue in the appendix.

Respectfully
Findegil