The Ring of Saruman?

[Findegil]

Posted by narfforc:

Did the study of the arts of the Enemy lead Saruman to create a ring, wishing to do good with it, yet turning his mind to evil, with the desire of the One Ring?

At least the forging of a ring of power was considered as a sin, an act against rule of nature that Ilúvatar had made. So even if what we Gandalf did observe at the Finger of Saruman was an false attemp without any power , it would have been the result of a sinfull action.

Thus it might have been that the try to make a ring of power was Sarumans fist false step. As I see him Saruman was surely fascinated by the lore of Ringmaking that he study. What sources could he have for that study? Memory of surfing smiths are not very probable, since the Mírdain did surely defend their house to the last with Celebrimbor. So it must have been written scripts of the Mírdain that were send away with the Three rings or carried by Celeborn or found in the ruins. But that would mean Saruman could only learn what Sauron thought the elven smiths and probably less then that. But also the scripts would most likely dokument the state in whish the Elves were still happy with what they had done or did.
Thus an attemp to employe his knowledge would be natural.

Respectfully
Findegil

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Findegil

At least the forging of a ring of power was considered as a sin, an act against rule of nature that Ilúvatar had made.

But doesn't it therefore follow from that that Celebrimbor and the Mírdain sinned against Eru's law in making the Three Elven Rings?

They were corrupted by Sauron, and that led to the tainting of the Seven and the Nine. But the Three were used for good.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But doesn't it therefore follow from that that Celebrimbor and the Mírdain sinned against Eru's law in making the Three Elven Rings?

Clearly it was a 'sin' from Tolkien's point of view:

'But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake & eat it; to live in the mortal historical Middle Earth because they had become fond of it (& because they there had the advantages of a superior caste) & so tried to stop its change & history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert where they could be artists, & they were burdened with sadness & nostalgic regret''

They had 'flirted with Sauron' in the making of the rings, but their essential 'sin' was their desire to 'embalm' the world - which is what lead them to fall for Sauron's offer of aid.

Whether the Three were used for 'good' is a matter of opinion - I feel their use was rather a necessary evil. They were used to fight Sauron, but in the wrong way - principally by 'freezing' chunks of M-e into stasis. Of course, that was really the only way they could be used & they were the only weapons the Elves had to hand (or at least the most powerful).

Saruman had clearly adopted an 'Elvish' mindset at first & its easy to see that he could have been drawn to try & create a ring of his own originally not to emulate Sauron, but rather the Elven Lords. In other words he was probably driven at first by the desire to create another 'Elven' ring in order to strengthen the power of the opposition to Sauron. Unfortunately, his mindset moves from the Elven (desire to 'preserve') to the Sauronian (desire to rule).

Originally Posted by Ninja91

A very interesting topic you bring up. Certainly, if the ring was very powerful and/or destructive, Tolkien would have made a much larger deal about it, and it probably would have been described more. But Tolkien did not just write that for kicks...

Yet Tolkien was perfectly capable of introducing objects simply for the sake of the plot & then simply forgetting all about them - the Book of Mazarbul for instance. 'Saruman ring-maker' just sounds evocative.....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hmmmm....in danger of taking this thread somewhat off-topic (but not thinking this deserves a thread of its own)...

davem's point about Saruman as adopting an Elvish approach to the world made something twig for me: Gandalf's approach to the world is very Mannish/Hobbitish (the two races being, as Tolkien explains in the Prologue to LotR very closely related to one another -- something that comes through in the narrative clearly). So perhaps all the Wizards were 'assigned' or assigned themselves to a specific race or aspect of Middle-Earth...

Radagast is clearly "with" nature and not a race at all, but as we all know, nature in Middle-earth really does have a character and an almost conscious existence all its own.

So maybe we can extrapolate from this the fate of the two remaining Wizards..? If the Elves attracted Saruman (looking to the glorious past, ring-making, thought and contemplation but no action), Men & Hobbits attracted Gandalf (looking to the future, action and hope, growth), Nature attracted Radagast, then presumably one of the Blue Wizards would have been attracted to a Dwarvish view of the world (which is why he disappears so quickly from history -- like the Dwarves he is a delver and a searcher, but a hoarder and one who keeps what he finds and learns to himself).

Which leaves the fifth Wizard...which Race is he associated with... Well after Elves, Men/Hobbits and Dwarves there's only one important race left: orcs. So did that second Blue Wizard follow the way of the orcs???

Like I said, taking things off topic but I didn't have the energy to start a new thread. The mods can shift and start if they wish...

[narfforc]

Fordim makes a valid point I believe, I have always imagined that Curumo/Saruman worked alongside The Noldor/Feanor in the smithies of Aule, it is certainly possible...........

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Which leaves the fifth Wizard...which Race is he associated with... Well after Elves, Men/Hobbits and Dwarves there's only one important race left: orcs. So did that second Blue Wizard follow the way of the orcs???

What of ents and the Druedain? Might some of the
Druedain have dwelt in eastern Middle-earth?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

What of ents and the Druedain? Might some of the
Druedain have dwelt in eastern Middle-earth?

Well I did think of them, but it seems to me that the Druedain are part of the race of Men (certainly, if Hobbits are -- as I believe -- then the Woses are too!); Ents I think are not really a 'race' insofar as they are, well, trees....and thus part of the nature to which Radagast is associated.

[davem]

I find the idea intriguing - except Gandalf always seemed a bit more Elvish than Saruman - who always struck me as the 'Mannish' one. Its possible that being more 'Mannish' he was more easily seduced by Elvish things, being 'alien' to him. Or its possible that he lost his 'Elvishness' over time. Certainly by the time he had turned he had lost any 'Elvish' tendencies. I haven't thought that through sufficiently though.

Not sure how far the idea can be pushed though. Of course, it may be that something of the sort was intended, but as the other Istari fell away from their tasks Gandalf had to take on more & more of their duties.

Of course, it would not be necessary for one of the Wizards to be dedicated to redeeming the Orcs. There were Men in the far east of M-e after all.

The difficulty, I suppose (because Tolkien never accounts for it), is exactly how & why Saruman went bad. The attempt to create another 'Elven' ring would fit. If your own side has a limited number of effective weapons it is very tempting to create more. He probably believed he was helping the cause. I suppose its not a very big step from wanting to create an Elven ring to fight Sauron to attempting to better Sauron's own weapon.

Effectively Saruman would have been planning to create a fourth Elven 'Fortress' in Isengard, alongside The Havens (when did he discover Cirdan had given Gandalf his ring - someone remind me), Imladris & Lorien. Isengard would have been the ideal place for a defensive structure & its possible that he originally wanted the place for that very reason. The gap of Rohan was strategically vulnerable - if Sauron could get his forces through there the whole of Eriador would have been open to him. He could also have attacked Rivendell much more easily - getting his forces past Galadriel & over the monutains would have been nigh impossible.

So, Saruman creates a powerful fortress guarding the Gap. The location is perfect. Even if Sauron conquered all the lands east of the Mountains the lands west could have been defended long enough to allow the forces of the West to retreat, re-group & stage a counter attack. Saruman becomes pivotal. Hence he would also have become Sauron's main target. Get Saruman 'on side' & there is only the Rohirrim between him & the lands west.

Saruman gambles on being able to strengthen Isengard by making his own ring, but in the end he is seduced by the idea of himself as 'defender of the west', & is corrupted by his desire for power to defeat Sauron into becoming like his enemy. When Saruman turns his perfect 'defensive' position becomes a perfect 'offensive' one. Isengard is strategically both the best & worst position - best in that if it is occupied by a foe of Sauron it protects one of the most vulnerable spots in Middle-earth, worst in that if it is gained by Sauron or a servant of his it blocks off movement of men & materiel into & out of Eriador & opens up the possiblity of direct attacks on Rivendell & the Havens. No wonder Sauron demanded the handing over of Isengard to his Lieutenant. No wonder, of course, that the Numenoreans built Isengard there in the first place.

The 'line' of fortresses, running from Erebor/Northern Mirkwood down through Lorien, Isengard & Minas Tirith, were all direct targets for Sauron's attacks, but being able to smash through at Isengard, opens up the west perfectly in order for an assault on the last two threats to his total victory. Saruman would have realised this & set out to strengthen Isengard to the best of his ability - hence the drive to study ring-lore & create a ring of his own. Hence also (probably) his elation at finding, & willingness to use, the Palantir.

It seems likely that it was the very importance & responsibility he felt that pushed him over the edge & turned him.