Of another world

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It is quite possible that Tolkien the author preferred a certain kind of reading, one which allowed, encouraged, demanded a personal responsiblity on the part of the reader. This is part of his famous rejection of allegory. His Christian message would be meaningless if forced upon readers, so he, as a sub-creator, created a readerly situation analogous to that which the Creator--in Tolkien's eyes-- allows, where the onus is on personal responsibility for how one makes sense of the world.

Wow. I could not have said it better.

Originally Posted by davem

Davem is arguing, as he always has, for reading the story with as little 'baggage' as possible, simply entering the world & allowing it to affect you, move you, & possibly even change you.

... as long as that change does not include any logical results of a Christian subtext?

There are layers and layers of subtext in LotR. How could there not be, considering all the linguistic, cultural, mythic, historical, and other substrata he has layered into it? What I am saying is that the deepest subtext is the Christian one, only one deeper than the theist. In that deepest of subtexts lie principles of reality and of the Spirit that are simply not perceivable by those who choose not to believe Christian teaching. It is this deepest substratum that Christians find so satisfying about LotR. This in no way denies the satisfactions to be enjoyed at the theist, mythic, linguistic, historical, cultural, story, and other strata of LotR. I appreciate that you are at least no longer denying that the Christian subtext is, or at least might be, there.

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Wow. I could not have said it better.

... as long as that change does not include any logical results of a Christian subtext?

There are layers and layers of subtext in LotR. How could there not be, considering all the linguistic, cultural, mythic, historical, and other substrata he has layered into it? What I am saying is that the deepest subtext is the Christian one, only one deeper than the theist. In that deepest of subtexts lie principles of reality and of the Spirit that are simply not perceivable by those who choose not to believe Christian teaching. It is this deepest substratum that Christians find so satisfying about LotR. This in no way denies the satisfactions to be enjoyed at the theist, mythic, linguistic, historical, cultural, story, and other strata of LotR. I appreciate that you are at least no longer denying that the Christian subtext is, or at least might be, there.

I accept a theist subtext, but as any reference to Incarnation is absent from the subtext, I don't see how it's specifically Christian.This is why I can't accept your position that there is something non-Christians miss. Apart from the fact that not picking up on it, they couldn't actually 'miss' it, I think you're bringing your Chiristian baggage into Middle earth with you & 'finding' it there because you've brought it.

What exactly is this specifically Christian meaning you're seeing there? All the examples you've offered so far have certainly shown a religious subtext, but not a specifically Christian one. There is no Incarnation in LotR, hence, it is not Christian as far as I can see. Mercy, compassion, self-sacrifice, the presence of a Loving Creator & 'Angelic' Guardians are not unique to Christianity.

I can see specificly Catholic reerences/symbols in there - Lembas, Elbereth, & such, but all those things are well enough accounted for in the context of the Secondary World that a primary world explanation is surplus to requirements. I don't believe bringing Christianity into M-e does anything but break the spell & pull you out of the Secondary world back into the Primary.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

What exactly is this specifically Christian meaning you're seeing there?

Originally Posted by davem

There is no Incarnation in LotR, hence, it is not Christian as far as I can see. Mercy, compassion, self-sacrifice, the presence of a Loving Creator & 'Angelic' Guardians are not unique to Christianity.

Originally Posted by davem

I can see specificly Catholic reerences/symbols in there - Lembas, Elbereth, & such, but all those things are well enough accounted for in the context of the Secondary World that a primary world explanation is surplus to requirements.

These statements succinctly give me the questions I will focus on answering, as I have the time.


Incarnation is not the only distinguishing characteristic of Chrstianity, but I'll get into that more later as well.

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Incarnation is not the only distinguishing characteristic of Christianity, but I'll get into that more later as well.

Incarnation & Resurrection: "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (1 Cor. 15:14).

Everything else boils down to Love God & Love your neighbour as yourself - which is about as far from unique in religious terms as I can think of.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

Incarnation & Resurrection: "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (1 Cor. 15:14).

Everything else boils down to Love God & Love your neighbour as yourself - which is about as far from unique in religious terms as I can think of.

There's more to it. I'll get into it as I have time. It's largely but not only implications of the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection. Largely but not only.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Please remember to keep your posts in the context of Tolkien's works - this is not a general theological discussion!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Please remember to keep your posts in the context of Tolkien's works - this is not a general theological discussion!

Sorry, Esty, but it actually became a theological discussion a long time back. However, we've decided that its relevant in the context of what we know of Inklings discussions. The point is exploring how 'Christian' a work the Legendarium is - hence we have to decide what constitutes 'Christian' (as opposed to 'religious') in this context, & how relevant that is. This effectively requires us to discuss general theology.

My position is that what is uniquely 'Christian' is the Incarnation, Crucifixion & Resurrection of Christ (& I suppose the idea of a 'personal relationship with the Creator) & that anything else in Christianity is shared with other religions like Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, & philosphies like humanism, Platonism, et al. As none of those four things is present in the Ledgendarium generally or LotR specifically I can't see how it can be called a 'Christian' work.

Obviously the nature of Christianity has to be established before we can determine whether LotR is a specifically 'Christian' work.