Saruman the Good

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Aren't we missing a rather obvious point...? If Saruman had not fallen and decided to emulate Sauron, then there would have been NO ill-effect of the War felt in the Shire. The lessons that the hobbits learned from that essential episode would have been lost -- in effect, the Quest of the Ringbearer would have been, in this case, an utter waste since his return would have had no impact of any sort on his world; it would have been allowed to run on, uninterrupted and happily oblivious to the dangers which surrounded and threatened it.

Without Saruman the Bad, there would have been no need to fight to reclaim the Shire (so Merry and Pippin's abilities as warriors would have been mere vainglory -- like Boromir -- rather than active principles of defense and self-sacrifice for a beloved homeland -- like Faramir), no need to redeem it (so Sam's hard fought wisdom would have found no ground in which to plant the seed of what he had learned and brought back), no chance for the hobbits to prove that they are worthy of such a paradise as they've been given (Frodo would not have been able to seal their victory over the bad with an act of profound mercy).

[Mithalwen]

You are presupposing that in the changed circumstances all the hobbits would have survived and the war was won.....

[Anguirel]

My main reaction is that a Saruman as unambiguously gleaming white as his robes would be a deadly dull character. Like Gandalf the White but without the advantage of being "known" to the reader.

A possibility I can imagine would be a Saruman still treacherous, but in a way that did not exclude helping fight Sauron. My Saruman would probably have agreed to help Gandalf with his Ring-lore after the defeat at Helm's Deep and remained an unknown, Machiavellian quantity, his motives hard to tell, his voice seducing both sides, trusted by no-one.

It would be quite ironic to have a "good" Gandalf the Grey and an "ambiguous" Saruman the White.

Fordim, I like your idea of Saruman's original role but am not sure how it would be constructed. Mandos, after all, said of Gandalf "not as the third..."-but perhaps the rallying and crowning would be Saruman's role as planned by Manwe?

[Raynor]

Mandos, after all, said of Gandalf "not as the third..."

That was Varda

[Anguirel]

Blimming indistinguishable faceless Gods. I'm sure Mandos said something...

[Mänwe]

A query such as this produces a great list of suppositions, thus here is my two pennies worth.

Gandalf's sacrifice would not even have been needed. They would not have passed through Moria but continued on their original journey through the mountain pass.

The events consequently at Amon Hen would have been a totally different affair. I would suggest perhaps even the entire fellowship would not have "broken". Frodo's admiration and love for Gandalf would have given cause for him to stay and not to leave.

Building on the point raised about the palantir, Aragorn would not have revealed himself through the palantir to Sauron. Thus Saurons attack on Gondor would have been delayed.

The list I am sure would be rather long if we all took the time to think of every possible angle. A concertina effect of occurences is bought to mind here.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Blimming indistinguishable faceless Gods. I'm sure Mandos said something...

Mandos said not the first to Feanor.... Mandos says a lot - not a lot of it cheerful

[Sardy]

Also, Saruman would have used his extensive Ring-lore for GOOD. Since we know he constructed some sort of ring for himself (open to much speculation) he might've devised something for use against the Enemy. Or at the very least, his knowledge of the Ruling Ring, the Nine, the Seven and the Three (not to mention other lesser rings) could very possibly have been used against Sauron in ways we can ony imagine: whether Saruman knew of alterntive ways to destroy the One, flaws in or aspects that could be exploited in the design of the rings themselves, and so on...