Survivor: The Second Age

[Firefoot]

Yes, but Tar-Mirel also did very little. Celebrimbor has done the most and is the most accomplished, so he deserves to win.

But Celebrimbor also made a lot more mistakes...

[the phantom]

She was put in a bad spot, forced into a marriage against her will to a man who would usurp all the power.

So, that makes her worthy of winning?

But she herself was not able to be saved from the drowning of Numenor - how could she? the Queen could hardly just go missing, and their doings all had to be done in secret.

Yeah right. If Tar-Miriel would've been around the Faithful a bit and helped them or at least been in contact with them, there is no doubt that Elendil and his sons would have had a plan to rescue their Queen after Ar-Phar left. Isildur rescued the Tree, didn't he? Then how much more likely would he have been to rescue the heir of the line of Elros that the Tree represented?

It would have been easy for her to give in, but she remained loyal to the Faithful, and would have undoubtedly helped them out quite a bit (she was certainly in some sort of position to do so, even if she would have had to act in secret).

She "undoubtedly" helped the Faithful quite a bit? That's quite a leap of faith you are taking. The Queen disobeying her husband and aiding his enemies is a big deal, especially in this instance. There are tales about the actions of Amandil, Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion before leaving Numenor, tales that tell of their preperations and brave deeds. I don't recall the queen being mentioned.

If Tar-Miriel would've done something it would've been written. Why don't you find something she actually did and then vote for her (that is if you can find something she did worthy of making her Survivor champ). You can't vote for someone based on a guess that they did something brave simply because you want a female to win. That is quite obviously sexist.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A provisional vote for
+ + Celebrian
She was actually rather adventurous, including
journeying over a rather run-down Redhorn Gate
to visit mom and dad, and she did survive orc poisoning
and ill treatment. Plus her experience with nassty
orcsees had a lot to do with her sons having
a thing for terminating orcs with extreme prejudice .
Oh yeah, and her seamstress daughter made a good
trophy wife.

[Celuien]

++CELEBRIMBOR

For being the only contestant remaining to have actually done something important. The Three Rings were important for the preservation of Rivendell and Lorien, and aiding Gandalf's efforts.

[The Saucepan Man]

Celebrimbor most certainly should not win, for the reasons that I have stated muerous times previously. He managed to get Middle-earth into a terrible mess, almost single-handedly, which others had to sort out, at great cost to themselves, later.

I rather prefer the idea of Celebrian as victor. It must have taken a lot of guts to resist simply succumbing to the torments of the Orcs that had captured her and relinquish her hroar then and there. I reckon that it was her love for her husband and children, and her wish to see them again, which kept her going, and that speaks loudly in her favour as far as I am concerned. Let's not underestimate the courage that is required to survive captivity in such terrible conditions. It is clear that she suffered terribly from the fact that even Elrond was unable, ultimately, fully to heal her spirit.

And she gave birth to some pretty remarkable chidlren. Arwen, who is likened to none less than Luthien, and whose inspiration of Aragorn contributed to the salvation of Middle-earth. And Elladan and Elrohir, whose qualities as hunters and warriors are undoubted, and who also contributed greatly to the cause at the Pelennor and before the Black Gate.

So, for her courage in the face of horrendous circumstances, and for her contribution, through her children, to the salvation of Middle-earth and ultimate defeat of Sauron in the Third Age:

+ + CELEBRIAN

[the phantom]

I can't find fault in your pro-Celebrian vote, Sauce, so you can rest easy on that.

I do, however, take issue with your anti-Celebrimbor stance (as usual).

He managed to get Middle-earth into a terrible mess, almost single-handedly

A ridiculous statement, if I may say so.

The mess you are speaking of is the Ring mess, obviously. Now answer me this- since the Ring thing would have happened even without him, how can you possibly justify saying that he caused it?

CELEBRIMBOR DID NOT CAUSE THE RING INCIDENT!!!

SAURON DID!!!

The only way the Ring wouldn't have happened is if Sauron hadn't thought of it. Celebrimbor was not necessary to Sauron's Ring plot. The ONLY things Celebrimbor added to the situation was the crafting of three powerful rings that were a great help to the good guys as well as the sensitivity to perceive Sauron's plot just in time to stop it from succeeding.

Without Celebrimbor, the whole Ring affair would've been a far bigger plus for Sauron.

(the above is not opinion- it is FACT!)

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

But Celebrimbor also made a lot more mistakes...

Yes, and with his mistakes also came helpful things while with the mistakes of the others came only bad things.

On the subject of Celebrian, yes she liked to go on adventures, but seeing as how her most important adventure led her to the thing which ruined her, that isn't a good thing. Also, since orcs are sick little cretins they probably tried to keep her alive so that they could torture her until they got bored, meaning that she didn't live through her throat getting chopped every day. Finally, going into the west (giving up in a sense) doesn't make one a survivor. Tar-Mirel didn't really do anything than be a slave of sorts to Ar-Pharazon. Celebrimbor has done the most for the Second Age, as well as the following Third Age, which helped shape the Fourth Age.

Vote for Celebrimbor, hero of the ages.

(Phantom, if you're going to vote for Celebrimbor, I suggest you put your vote down in the voting tags so that For doesn't say anything to neglect your opinion.)

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I can't find fault in your pro-Celebrian vote, Sauce, so you can rest easy on that.

Whew! I am relieved ...

Originally Posted by TP

Now answer me this- since the Ring thing would have happened even without him, how can you possibly justify saying that he caused it?

Did you even bother reading my earlier argumentation? The whole point of Sauron's Ring scheme was to gain control over the peoples of ME, especially the Elves. Had he not been able to persuade Celebrimbor and his team to create the other Rings of Power, it is unlikely that he would have gone through with it. And, even had he done so, it is likely that, without their involvement, the One Ring would have been less powerful than it was. Celebrimbor's pride, greed and gullibility was a direct contributor to the mess that prevailed at the end of the Third Age. One which, ultimately, required Eru's direct intervention to sort out.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Finally, going into the west (giving up in a sense) doesn't make one a survivor.

Neither, then, does getting butchered as a result of one's pride, greed and gullibility and ending up on an Orcish battle standard ...

[Lalaith]

Who here among us has never had the temptation to rewrite history - just a little - in favour of those innocents that were wronged?

To have saved the noble Germanicus from poisoning, and the Roman empire from the raddled bag of depravities that was his brother Tiberius...

To have stolen into the Tower and smuggled out the two Little Princes...
...or rescued poor, clever, shy Lady Jane Grey from the block, and taken her back to the safe obscurity she craved...

...or to administer a TB jab to a certain young Londoner in the early 1800s, and thus add to the world's greatest poetry the splendour of a mature Keats....

Now we have here, on the Downs, the chance to right a great wrong. Tar-Miriel would, but for the machinations of Sauron and his lap-dog Ar-Pharazon, been a very great Queen, a wise and just ruler of Numenor. I say we crown her Queen of Survivor instead, and allow the viewers a small glimpse what might have been.
++TAR MIRIEL

[JennyHallu]

++Celebrian

So that grace and beauty shall not pass quickly from the world.

I have always had a fascination and reverence for Celebrian. She bore up under the greatest trials and triumphed. She kept herself alive until help came in a hopeless situation and through torture of the mind, body, and spirit, and that she left for healing afterwards cannot be faulted. My vote for her is because her story ends in triumph and reunion.

[Mithalwen]

++Celebrian Think of the consequences if she does not survive into the Third Age. She is a survivor and her largely untold story encapsulates so many aspects of the wider history of middle earth.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Nomen est omen, as the Romans used to say. Let's see:

Celebrimbor: "Silver-fist". Silver -> a second place -> not worthy of winning.

Celebrían: "Silver queen". See above.

Tar-Míriel: Tar = high lady, queen. Mîr, Míre = jewel. This dazzling woman is the jewel of the show. She might be a diamond in the rough, her brilliance dimmed by her ever so horrible husband, but she has got a lot of potential in her (and a personal name compared to the Celeb-something-club), so let us now give her a chance to shine.

I trust that a voting decision that is based on languages that were so dear to Tolkien is Middle-earthian enough... However, just in case:

++TAR-MÍRIEL

Because she would have deserved to be the fourth Ruling Queen of Númenor. Winning the Second Age Survivor may serve as a consolation prize.

[Lalaith]

the Celeb-something-club

Yeah. I'm sick of the whole Celeb culture.

[Diamond18]

Tar-Míriel: Tar = high lady, queen. Mîr, Míre = jewel.

As one also possessing a jewel-like name, I must toss my hat in with the tragic Queen of Númenor. Re-writing history with unrepentant glee, we right the wrongs done unto not only her but the whole Isle of Númenor. Let this survivor's island be the new Isle of Númenor, with Tar-Miriel ruling as Queen, as is her right as the only heir of Tar-Palantir, last decent King of Númenor.

+ + Tar-Míriel

Or in other words, because I damn well please.

[Diamond18]

Tar-Míriel: 4 votes
Celebrían: 4 votes
Celebrimbor: 3 votes

And since phantom hasn't officially voted but voiced a clear preference, one can almost say Celebrimbor has 4 votes. And you know what that means, boys and girls...

Three Way SMACKDOWN! I mean, er, three way tie.

[Firefoot]

If Tar-Miriel would've done something it would've been written.

Because Tolkien always finished everything he wrote.

You can't vote for someone based on a guess that they did something brave simply because you want a female to win. That is quite obviously sexist.

And you aren't biased at all. Besides, I'm not inventing, I'm inferring. Blame it on RPG's, if you will.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

And you aren't biased at all. Besides, I'm not inventing, I'm inferring. Blame it on RPG's, if you will.

And don't forget, we can and will vote however we want as long as its based in Tolkien one way or another. I think that inferring and imagining based on what Tolkien wrote falls under that header.

[the phantom]

Three Way SMACKDOWN! I mean, er, three way tie.

Actually, I'd sort of like to see a tie. I wonder what Formy would do....

Should we find out?

Yeah. Let's see what he does with a tie.

+ + Celebrimbor

For previously stated reasons (making the three rings, getting them hidden before Sauron's plan could catch them, and refusing to reveal their whereabouts when tortured). And I also like the way he and those under his leadership forged such an excellent relationship with the dwarves of Moria. Isn't that nice?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

If Tar-Miriel would've done something it would've been written.

Originally Posted by Ff

Because Tolkien always finished everything he wrote.

Oh, please. I'm well aware he didn't finish everything, but he certainly managed the major details of stories he wrote. For instance, he didn't leave the whole bit about Turin slaying Glaurung out of the Turin story and think "Oh, I'll get to it later". He took care of the main characters and deeds.

Now, Queen Tar-Miriel aiding the Faithful and doing brave deeds behind Ar-Phar's back- that is a major character doing a major deed, and thus it would not have been left out of the story if it had happened.

Originally Posted by me

You can't vote for someone based on a guess that they did something brave simply because you want a female to win. That is quite obviously sexist.

Originally Posted by Ff

And you aren't biased at all.

No, I'm not. Picking a Survivor Champion based on qualifications is no more biased than hiring someone because they are the most qualified. On the other hand, hiring someone who isn't the most qualified because they are male/female/white/black is biased, as is voting for a less qualified Survivor Champion.

This isn't just a game- this is a test of ethics that will have a massive bearing on the rest of your life. Sure, it sounds like a simple thing to pick a bad candidate today, but next thing you know you'll beating up little old ladies and stealing lunch money from children.

Stop, before it's too late!