Relative Powers

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I've seen these points before. The problem with your argument is that the note about Luthien being the greatest of all the Eldar is actually attached to a statement about Feanor and Galadriel being the greatest of the Noldor. In other words, Tolkien did not forget about one or the other, nor did he confuse his terms.

Aren't you giving too much weight to a single statement? Tolkien's thoughts were often in flux, & often one statement is contradicted by another. Look at the way Orodreth's character changes over the course of the Legendarium. At various times we have Feanor in the Ascendent, then Luthien, then Galadriel, & taking one statement about hierarchy as being definitive is purely arbitrary.

As I said originally - we have to look at what is 'unsaid' in any particular statement, not just at what is said.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

Aren't you giving too much weight to a single statement? Tolkien's thoughts were often in flux, & often one statement is contradicted by another. Look at the way Orodreth's character changes over the course of the Legendarium. At various times we have Feanor in the Ascendent, then Luthien, then Galadriel, & taking one statement about hierarchy as being definitive is purely arbitrary.

As I said originally - we have to look at what is 'unsaid' in any particular statement, not just at what is said.

Tolkien's words on this don't conflict. I understand that he often changes his mind, but in this case the quoted material is not in conflict with older statements. Additionally, it provides a concept of all three respective "statures" as they were conceived at a single time, without any one individual of this sort of triumvirate receiving special mention due to momentary whim. Again, at the time he wrote this, he was considering the stature of all three simultaneously and as compared with one another. Therefore it is the most solid conception.

Unless you're positing that there was another Elda besides these three who might be considered "greatest." In which case I'd like to see your references.

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Tolkien's words on this don't conflict. I understand that he often changes his mind, but in this case the quoted material is not in conflict with older statements. Additionally, it provides a concept of all three respective "statures" as they were conceived at a single time, without any one individual of this sort of triumvirate receiving special mention due to momentary whim. Again, at the time he wrote this, he was considering the stature of all three simultaneously and as compared with one another. Therefore it is the most solid conception.

Unless you're positing that there was another Elda besides these three who might be considered "greatest." In which case I'd like to see your references.

And who wrote this statement - I mean within the Legendarium? Is the statement to be considered the opinion of that particular writer or one by the 'translator' Tolkien. Is the writer qualified to make an objective judgement or is he simply making a personal assessment? What standards is this writer using - what does he mean by 'greatest'? How is he using the term?

[Thalion]

Tolkien's words on this don't conflict. I understand that he often changes his mind, but in this case the quoted material is not in conflict with older statements. Additionally, it provides a concept of all three respective "statures" as they were conceived at a single time, without any one individual of this sort of triumvirate receiving special mention due to momentary whim. Again, at the time he wrote this, he was considering the stature of all three simultaneously and as compared with one another. Therefore it is the most solid conception.

I'd concur that the statement itself contains within it a hierarchy of charcters as Tolkien (possibly through some source, I forget who within the legendarium wrote that particular statement) saw them...but again, I'd question as to what hierarchy we are talking about...Tolkien choose his words very carefully being a philologist...what exactly is the right reading of the word "greatest"?...maybe only he knows...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

And who wrote this statement - I mean within the Legendarium? Is the statement to be considered the opinion of that particular writer or one by the 'translator' Tolkien.

The statement wasn't written within the Legendarium. It was one of Tolkien's essays, written about Middle-earth from without.

Originally Posted by davem

Is the writer qualified to make an objective judgement or is he simply making a personal assessment?

He's qualified to judge objectively. They're his creations.

Originally Posted by davem

What standards is this writer using - what does he mean by 'greatest'? How is he using the term?

It's used as you see it. A general "greatness of being," obviously not intended to indicate the size of the individuals. One might say that Tarkovsky is the greatest of all film directors, and while that statement is certainly debatable and the criteria for judgment obscure, the intended meaning is clear--Tarkovsky is superior to all other film directors. Unlike my example, the statement we're discussing is not debatable since it comes from the Creator. Since the statement is unqualified, the criteria for judgment are evidently all those things that make an Elda an Elda (or Noldo). It may be true that Feanor was a "greater" craftsman than Luthien, but that does not change that as individuals are estimated in greatness by their Creator, Luthien is greatest.

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The statement wasn't written within the Legendarium. It was one of Tolkien's essays, written about Middle-earth from without.

Then its opinion. We know how Tolkien altered his opinions on characters & events within the Legendarium, back & forth. If it was an essay by Tolkien commenting on the Legendarium its just his opinion

He's qualified to judge objectively. They're his creations.

This would only be true if he had never made any contradictory statements about the Legendarium. As he did so, it has questionable weight.

It may be true that Feanor was a "greater" craftsman than Luthien, but that does not change that as individuals are estimated in greatness by their Creator, Luthien is greatest.

At one point in an ever changing, ever evolving creation. If you compare what we know of both Luthien & Feanor, where's the evidence for Luthien's superiority? Are you just accepting that Luthien is 'greater' because in one essay Tolkien expressed his opinion that she was?

I accept that Tolkien is better qualified to judge than any of us, but he changed his opinion too much for his words to be taken as the final 'fact'.

The Translator Conceit is central to this discussion. Tolkien too is a 'Translator' after all. By placing himself in that role (as I've argued before) he becomes a character in his own creation. So effectively we have two Tolkien's - the primary world Oxford professor who invented the legends of Middle-earth, & the secondary world 'translator' of the Red Book. Which one wrote the essay?