Relative Powers

[Formendacil]

In Unfinished Tales, "The Quest for Erebor", Gandalf goes on for some time about what the effects on Middle-Earth would have been without the events of The Hobbit. Bearing particularly on this situation, he refers to the devastating effect on Rivendell had Smaug not been killed, and from the passage, one gains a direct feeling that although Sauron might not have had direct control over the dragon's actions, he would definitely have been able to use him, and would have been the senior partner in any partnership they might have formed.

So I agree with Thinlómien, Smaug ought to be placed below Sauron.

[littlemanpoet]

I can see the Smaug/Sauron pseudo-alliance working much like the Sauron/Shelob one. However, I am put in my (by way of example) of historic wars, during which one nation, quite powerful, does the work for another just as powerful country such that the third, attacked, nation, is attacked from both sides; this doesn't necessarily indicate that one power is greater or lesser than another, just useful to the initiator.

[Eonwe]

I take it you have regected my analysis of data? Thou stick in the mud!

LMP, are you dealing with these entities as people, or people groups? Are 'Ents', 'Goblins', 'Hobbits', and 'Elves', waiting to be fleshed out, or are you planing to keep them that way?

Because I don't think you really can. Balrogs come in all different shapes and sizes. Same for pretty much ever other race. I realize that will make your job allot harder. Or are you shooting for a more general overview of a certain race?

[Elu Ancalime]

Good point Eonwe. I think if an Ent and an orc each had on free hit on each other, we know who would win. But, a group of orcs in there natural state (with weapons) and Ents in their natural state (themselves), the battle would be more even, no matter what Flotasm and Jetseam says.

There are other thing too. Like, Isildur i think would be way below Sauron no matter what; even though he "defeated" him, it was more chance, he did not best him. Perhaps there should be a seperate list for individuals that is somewhat based on their grouping; a list of only species would be a lot easir in different ways I think. Some things however, might be so small in entity they might be mixed with groups. (like Ungilont, even though there would be a spider gruop, and then spiders could be broken down into spiders of Mirkwood, of Ered Gogoroth, etc)
________
Glass Pipes

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I take it you have regected my analysis of data? Thou stick in the mud!

No. I'm holding on to it for more consideration.

LMP, are you dealing with these entities as people, or people groups? Are 'Ents', 'Goblins', 'Hobbits', and 'Elves', waiting to be fleshed out, or are you planing to keep them that way?

Individuals may be extracted from people groups.

Because I don't think you really can. Balrogs come in all different shapes and sizes. Same for pretty much ever other race. I realize that will make your job allot harder. Or are you shooting for a more general overview of a certain race?

More general, but specified as much as is not unwieldy. I'm wondering about pulling apart the Eldar into their various people groups?

Please do recall, Elu, that this is not just "battles". This is the physical, psychic, and spiritual aspects of each individual & people group, as described by Tolkien.

[Elu Ancalime]

Ah, right. Powers implied in my head made me thing of turnbased RPG.
________
Weed vaporizers

[Mister Underhill]

I've always thought this sort of "power" hierarchy is a red herring. Put rock, scissors, and paper in a hierarchy... see what I mean? Sauron's will beats Orcs, Orcish muscle beats hobbits, hobbit fortitude beats Sauron. If you need a snappy rhyme in a hurry, a Spider is a better bet than an Ent, but if you need to roust a wizard, talk to Treebeard.

What do you measure? Denethor has the power to set armies in motion with a command, but Legolas could put an arrow through his eye. Which is more "powerful"? If it's a good home-cooked meal you want, forget them both and see Sam. Which is a more accurate measure of power: the sheer magical force that Gandalf could project, or the wisdom which guided his decisions?

The problem with this sort of list is that it does seem to evoke a videogame mentality -- you start comparing Gandalf and Saruman's mana points, or Aragorn's armor class vs. Boromir's armor class.

If you're talking Middle-earth Fight Club, there are still a few kinks to be worked out. Sauron pre-Ring, Sauron with Ring, and Sauron the giant flaming eyeball are all different animals. Same with Sauron on the battlefield vs. Sauron the insidious court advisor vs. Sauron the commander-in-chief.

Anyway. I've lodged my complaint. Carry on with the list-making.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Child grumbles and then begins to jump up and down in an agitated fashion, waving her hands in the air......

Littlemanpoet

Stop!

I know what RPG you are talking about, but Mr. Underhill is right. You can't do this. Well, of course, you can, but I mean the whole idea of making such a list runs counter to the message and spirit of Tolkien. Everything in LotR makes me realize that, at any given instant in time, the tables can be turned and someone from the bottom of the list can defeat someone higher up. What that means is that the list has no real meaning.

If Hobbits are listed number 167 (or whatever they are), then how come Frodo managed to outwit Sauron and destroy the Ring? How could Samwise possibly have defeated a gigantic spider, which should have had him for lunch? There are dozens of examples like this, involving races other than hobbits, but I am too lazy to list them all out.

P.S. f you really want to continue with this enterprise, I believe you've left Galadriel off your list....