Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Findegil]

BL-EX-18 I found my reading a bit stocky. What about this:

Mablung and Beleg came hastening to the King's aid, but when they looked upon what was done they cast aside their spears and wept. Then Mablung took a knife and ripped up the belly of the Wolf; and within he was well nigh all consumed as with a fire, but the hand of Beren that held the jewel was yet incorrupt. BL-EX-18 <Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 Mablung took out Beren's right hand - his kamba, still holding the Silmaril and by its protection unmortified and clean. But to his surprise the hand and jewel seemed to have so great a weight that Mablung's own hand was dragged earthward and forced open, letting the other fall to the ground. It was said that Mablung's name ('with weighted hand') was prophetic; but it may have been a title derived from the episode that afterwards became the one that the hero was chiefly remembered by in legend. > But when Mablung reached forth to touch it, the hand was no more, and the Silmaril lay there unveiled, and the light of it filled the shadows of the forest all about them. Then quickly and in fear Mablung took it and set it in Beren's living hand; and Beren was aroused by the touch of the Silmaril, and held it aloft, and bade Thingol receive it. 'Now is the Quest achieved,' he said, 'and my doom full-wrought'; and he spoke no more.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I must apologize (again) for being so slow with this. Here, finally, are some comments (up to BL-EX-10).

BL-SL-01: The absence from LQ of the Orc-leader’s intention to betray Sauron and take the ring seems very probably due to compression. If I recall correctly, that feature was already present in the original version of the Lay, and yet is absent from other earlier accounts.
The matter of whether the Orcs took the whole hand of Barahir or just the ring is an interesting one. I could imagine that the fact that they took the whole hand is simply omitted from the Lay, not rejected. But even if there were a definite disagreement between the two texts, we would have no way of determining priority – in such a case, I think I’d go with the Lay. Actually, it strikes me that, as a general principle, we might want to give priority to the later version of the Lay over LQ, since by this point much of the work on LQ was merely copying QS.

BL-EX-03: This needs a bit of thought. As much as I like the passage, I am really quite hesitant to include it, since Tolkien left it out of the revised version. I can think of a possible motivation for this removal – it is said in QS (as found in the ’77) that Beren “spoke of it [the journey] to no one after, lest the horror lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found a way, and so came by paths that no Man or Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders of Doriath”. I need to think about this further, but for the moment I must say I’m inclined not to re-introduce the passage.

BL-EX-04:If we do include it, we might want to say “did he” rather than “he did”. The metrical “did” is not good, and Tolkien went to great lengths to excise it from the revision, which is perhaps another reason we shouldn’t include this bit.

BL-EX-06:

now all these horrors like a cloud {575}
BL-EX-06{faded from mind}[he did there find]. The waters loud

This doesn’t work – “like a cloud” describes the horrors fading from his mind. I cannot think of a solution at the moment, though I’m not inclined to try overly hard, as I don’t think we should include this passage anyway.

BL-EX-07: I think this should be “recked not {now}[of] the burning road”.

BL-RG-00.5: What about:

BL-RG-00.5 and tree-propped halls, the forest-{god}[lord],
rides his great stallion golden-shod

Also, I believe there was a change Tauros > Tauron. I will have to check, though – I can’t recall where it might be found.

BL-RG-02: Removing “and there” leaves an ungrammatical sentence. But we could simply change the comma to a semi-colon:

in the land of the Valar long ago{,}[;]
BL-RG-02{and there} in {Tun}[Tirion] of their own light
they shone like marvellous stars at night,

BL-RG-05: I like the idea here, but I don’t think the sense is entirely clear once “Gods” is removed (Who is bringing the chain? Where are they bringing it?) Perhaps:

for Morgoth shall BL-RG-05{by Gods}[with force] be BL-SL-02{wrought}[brought]
{of}[with] steel and torment. Names she sought,

BL-RG-06: Findegil wrote:

An alternative line cold be:
“{of} tower-crowned {Tun}[Tuna], that still”

Well – not if “crowned” is supposed to be pronounced as two syllables, as it seems to be in the original.

In the line:

of tower-crowned BL-RG-06{Tun}[town], that still

. . . there seems to be a missing article. We might make it:

of [the] tower-crowned BL-RG-06{Tun}[town], that still

BL-RG-08: I think we can keep the “and”; the second and third syllables of “Silpion” are short enough to allow it.

BL-RG-09: I think the extra syllable might be a problem here. A shorter replacement for “Lord of Gods” would be good, though I can’t think of one at the moment.

BL-RG-09: I’m not entirely sure the extra syllable is needed, but I think it works.

BL-RG-11.5: I’m unsure about this; it would be good to try to find an alternative.

BL-RG-12: I think your line is excellent. But I think you meant “’twixt” with a “t” on the end.

BL-RG-15:

Is my counting at a miss or did Tolkien leave out a syllable in lines 1825 and 1827?

Though Tolkien calls the form “octosyllabic couplets”, I am very much of the opinion that it is really what would be better called “iambic tetrameter”. What is really fixed, I think, is the sense of four “feet” per line, not the number of syllables. But in the cases of lines 1825 and 1827, I think it’s a moot point – by my count, there are eight syllables in each of those lines (nine in 1827, if one pronounces “power” as two syllables). So I see no need to make any metrical changes.

BL-RG-17: I think this is fine. “Tuna” is, after all, really a later form of “Tun”, despite the fact that its significance was slightly changed.

BL-SL-03: I agree that a better solution should be sought here, though I cannot provide one at the moment.

BL-EX-09: This is a little clunky. I wonder whether it’s really necessary to introduce the name ‘Edrahil’ (though I agree that, all else being equal, it would be good to do).

BL-SL-04: What about merely making it:

of Orodreth set it: 'BL-SL-04{Brother}[Nephew] mine, (1920)

BL-EX-10: I need to look at this some more and see if I can come up with something better. But if we have too much trouble with it, we should just omit it.

[Findegil]

BL-SL-01: I think the hand was removed because of the development in the Lay that the Ork wanted to keep the Ring for himself. With the hand brought to Sauron he could not so easily lie that it was bar (normally you would see a mark of a ring at the finger, especially with a man living all times out side).

Posted by Aiwendil:

Actually, it strikes me that, as a general principle, we might want to give priority to the later version of the Lay over LQ, since by this point much of the work on LQ was merely copying QS.

Agreed.

BL-Ex-03: I can understand your point, but there is at least one passage that comes to mind that does contradict your theory. And that passage comes from the most highest priority source we have: "The Lord of the Rings"; volume 2: "The Two Towers"; book IV; chapter IX: "Shelob's Lair":

There agelonge she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. ...

I must say that my memory of that passage was based on the German translation which makes the passage even more explicit by making it Shelob (or rather Kankra) herself who fought with Beren. But anyway here we have a passage that tells us that Beren fought against spiders on his way to Doriath. I would therefore argue that even if he never spoke about it the poet of the Lay took the elvish experience of the Ered Grogoroth and Dungorthed and the freedom of poesy and worked out a passage fitting to the occasion. If I imagine Frodo writing his account of his quest with no more information than what we have in the new version of the Lay and in QS as found in Sil77, how could he than say that Beren had fought with the spiders?

Either way I comment on BL-EX-04 to BL-EX-07 if we decide to use them in the end.

BL-EX-04 & BL-EX-05: What about:

Then {all his}[on this] journey{'s} lonely[ he] fare,
{the}[of] hunger and {the}[of] haggard care,

BL-EX-06: May be we could change it thus:

and there they lived, and sucked bones
lay white beneath on the dark stones -
now all these horrors like a cloud
BL-EX-06{faded from}[lay on his] mind. The waters loud
falling from pinnacle heights no more
he heard, those waters grey and frore
that bittersweet he drank and filled
his mind with madness - all was stilled.

BL-RG-00.5: Agreed. And Tauros -> Tauron is also right.

BL-RG-02: Agreed.

BL-RG-05: Agreed.

BL-RG-06: Agreed.

BL-RG-08: Agreed.

BL-RG-09: What about:

whereon are built the timeless halls
of Manwe {Lord of Arda}[and Varda]. Who calls

Not the same sense but still true.

BL-RG-11.5: With an syllable more:

{not might of Gods}[nor any might on Earth], not moveless fate
shall him defend from wrath and hate

But I am not really happy with this.

BL-RG-12: Of course with a "t" at the end. Thanks for the flowers.

BL-RG-15: Okay, then we will leave the "here" in 1827 out.

BL-SL-03: Let's try:

So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their lord obey,
but sullen murmured that Finrod
{nor yet his son were as a god}[does not think enough as a realms lord].
Then Felagund took off his crown
and at his feet he cast it down,

BL-EX-09: What about:

{One stopped and}[And Edrahil] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
{and said}[saying]: 'O king, to leave this town

BL-SL-04: Agreed.

BL-EX-10: Your work is ever welcome.

At last a word to the working speed. I do not bother at all how slow we are in the moment. When I look at the time it took to finish FoG we are still moving like in a rush reckoned from that point onward.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Just to get this at the top: Are we still in progress?

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Aiwendil, just to let you know, Maedhros and I are still active in the background. After finishing the reworking of all texts that we have to the point we did bring them as jet, I did make a draft for "The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fal of Fingolfin" and Maedhros made a draft for "The Flight of the Noldor". But we both agreed that we will not start with this chapters if ever we get Beren and Lúthien finished, but rather go to "Of Valinor and the Two Trees" with the group discussion and then proced through the chapters of Sil in due order.

[Aiwendil]

Just to get this at the top: Are we still in progress?

Yes. I know it was a few weeks ago that I said I'd have more comments "in a day or so" or something like that. Things have been busier than I expected and I haven't gotten much of a chance to sit down and put things in order.

So - sorry for the unpredictability of my contributions, but I'm still here and I will have more comments up soon.

[Aiwendil]

I'm really sorry that I'm proceeding with this so slowly . . .

BL-EX-03: I agree that it must have been known that Beren fought with spiders in Nan Dungortheb. The real issue, I suppose, is only the ract that Tolkien did not include the passage in the revision. I must think on this a bit more, but for the moment, I'm still inclined not to use it.

BL-RG-09: I don't think that "and Varda" can be used to replace "Lord of Gods", unfortunately - they have the same total number of syllables, but "and Varda" is only one stress, whereas "Lord of Gods" is two. "Lord of Arda" is useable but not ideal.

BL-RG-11.5: Again, the problem is with the number of stresses - "not any might on Earth" has one too many.

BL-SL-03: This one's looking difficult to me. I don't see a solution as yet.

BL-EX-09: Well, I don't think the added "and" would help matters. But looking back at this, I think that your original suggestion is not bad.

BL-RG-21: This leaves a couplet that doesn’t rhyme (“thou” and “do”). But we could fix it by changing to the second person plural/formal:

And Beren muttered: 'BL-RG-21{Doth Gorthu}[Who are you]
{now}[to] hinder work that is to do?

This, however, still leaves the problem of the antecedent-less “him” that follows. This could be solved by changing the “him” to “you” in the following passage, but this alters the import of the dialogue somewhat.

It would be good if we could find a rhyme for “Sauron” or “Gorthaur” to use in line 2162, but I cannot come up with a good one. So I suppose my choice would be to go with “you” and change “him”.

BL-RG-22: One possibility that comes to mind is:

Yet not all unavailing were (2215)
BL-RG-22the spells {of Felagund; Gorthu}[; for Sauron did not know]
{neither} the name{s} nor purpose of his foe.

The removal of the “s” in “names” is possibly not necessary; I’m not sure whether it’s valid to use “foe” as a collective singular.

BL-RG-23: I think “Great” is fine here, as it can be read simply as an epithet. Isn’t there a general change Tavros > Tauron, though? I’ll check.

BL-RG-24: I think that the “had” can be included without doing much damage to the metre.

BL-RG-26: The extra “thus” actually damages the metre, I think. “Sauron’s packs him feared as Death” is fine.

BL-RG-27: Same thing here; I would go with “Sauron’s wolves of late of dared”.

BL-RG-28: Same here. All of these cases are illustrations of the fact that this is not really a metre based on syllables but rather on feet. Since “Sauron” is accented on the first syllable, it should really be scanned as the second syllable of the first foot, with the first syllable missing (alternatively one could view the whole line as trochaic rather than iambic and consider the last syllable to be missing).

BL-RG-30: We could try a rhyme on “rescue” in the second line but this would still be awkward, since “rescue” is stressed on the first syllable.

Another possibility is:

who Beren heeded not, and who
had little cause now to pursue

But this may be too much of a change.

BL-RG-32: How about:

{Thu}[Sauron] heard that voice, and {sudden} stood
wrapped in his cloak and sable hood

BL-RG-33: It might be possible to use:

that fed on flesh of Man and Elf
beneath the chair of BL-RG-33 {Thu} [Sauron] himself. (2715)

The metre there is not perfect but I think it’s passable.

BL-RG-34: I’m not sure we should leave out the “and”. It leaves a construction that is technically ungrammatical, though used often enough in written English. The “and” would not destroy the metre.

BL-RG-35: This looks good.

But some other interesiting question: since he left behind the “wolvish corpse” had Sauron given up for a moment his incarnation just to build himself a new body at once? If that’s true then why didn’t he do that before he gave Lúthien the “password”?

It does seem to me that Sauron was “killed” here (just as he was, again, in the fall of Numenor and for a third time at the Last Alliance). But you make a good point – why yield the password if he was going to “die” in any case?

[Findegil]

BL-EX-03: I am not adamant in using it. In my view it is a passage with further details worth the changes need to use it. But the case that Tolkien did not include it in the revision shades some doubts on it.
It would be good to have third voice in this, but if your doubts presists we can drop it.

BL-RG-09: What is then with: "of Manwë Lord of {Gods}[Eä]. Who calls"?

BL-RG-11.5: Alternativ:

{not}[no] might {of Gods}[on Earth], {not}[nor] moveless fate

BL-SL-03: A simple alternativ is to drop the couple:

So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their Lord obey{,
but sullen murmured that Finrod
nor yet his son were as a god}.
Then Felagund took off his crown
and at his feet he cast it down,

BL-EX-09: Not that I would not take my own first suggestion, but my be it can be bettered:

{One stopped and}[Edrahil then] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
and said: 'O king, to leave this town

BL-RG-21: I am okay with "you" and the change from "him" to "you" as well. The only rhyming word that comes to my mind for Gorthaur is power, but to introduce that would be a massiv change.

BL-RG-22: Very good! The question if the "s" in names is possible is beyond my knowldge of english orthography. But I would drop it simply to be on the save said.

BL-RG-23: You are rightthe history of the name was Tavros > Tauros > Tauron. I will add that to the list of General changes.

BL-RG-24: Okay, I will take the "had" back in.

BL-RG-26, BL-RG-27 & BL-EX-03: Agreed.

BL-RG-30: I like your suggestion. The use of pursue is a bit out of the maenstream meaning, but for me it works.

BL-RG-32 & BL-RG-33: Agreed.

BL-RG-34: Your feeling for the meter is much better then mine, so if you think the "and" can stand, I agree that it makes a beter gramatic for the sentence.

The issue of Saurons death:
I have to research this further. I remember dimly that this defeat was adress some were in a telling way, but as jet I cold not find it. In the moment my feeling is that Sauron was not killed and that therefore I would remove the cdead wolfish corpse.

Respectfully
Findegil