Speaking of a Silly Poll

[Kuruharan]

I think that hiding away his city was a natural reaction to the threat his people faced, but in doing so he effectively condemned said people to a life (and an endless life, at that) in a prison. Gondolin, the Gated Community of Arda.

That is a matter of perspective dependant on the perspective of those supposedly imprisoned. What is freedom?

Following this logic, it was actually a good thing that Gondolin fell, since all those "prisoners" who could escape alive would be free

Apparently it is being a bunch of refugees barely clinging to a rather unpleasant coastline. And escaping alive was a real trick wasn't it?

Remember the Fen of Serech

Huor and Hurin wanted that.

[drigel]

It's interesting to note, not that he wasnt picked as a favorite, but how many anti-Turgons there are out there. Cool to see different takes on the same reading. But yikes - dont hate the player, hate the game.

The puzzlement I have is how people like Fingon, but hate Turgon..?? To me, Turgon's (like the rest of the Exiles) story is a study of the Doom, but with a refreshingly different twist than his sires and counterparts. Its an alternate strategy, but a strategy that one could possibly say was "meant", or absolutely fated to be none other than the way it was. The aid and relationship of Ulmo, Osse, and eagles throughout the years tells me he took a path through the Doom that was the most congruent (for lack of better words) with the higher powers than any of the other Cursed.

That is a matter of perspective dependant on the perspective of those supposedly imprisoned.

kuzzactly. There are those who like to roam, then there are those who dont.

OK I'll stop, because I either sound like an apologist for T, or I need to start a Turgon appreciation society.

edit: my favorite quote about T.:

Now the thought of Morgoth dwelt ever upon Turgon; for Turgon had escaped him, of all his foes that one whom he most desired to take or to destroy. And that thought troubled him, and marred his victory, for Turgon of the mighty house of Fingolfin was now by right King of all the Noldor; and Morgoth feared and hated the house of Fingolfin, because they had the friendship of Ulmo his foe, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him with his sword. And most of all his kin Morgoth feared Turgon; for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted upon him, and whenever he drew near a shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that yet lay hidden, from Turgon ruin should come to him.

a pain in his foot and a weight on his mind... #1 and #2

[Formendacil]

Good heavens!! Finrod? Maedhros?

The poll is about High Kings of the Noldor, not just plain old kings. Why do you go advocating Thingol or Dior? After all, if one can disregard the High part of the poll why not disregard the Noldor part? Or, for that matter, why limit it to Kings at all? Why not just go with favourite Middle-Earthian character? Or favourite fictional character? Or favourite person real or feigned?

Seriously, the way people around here are unable to vote within the confines of any poll presented irks me... If Fordim had wanted his silly poll to be about Noldorin kings in general, he would have made it about that, but he didn't.

Excuse the irateness... I'm very irked.

P.S. As the poll will show, I've voted Gil-Galad.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Good heavens!! Finrod? Maedhros?

The poll is about High Kings of the Noldor, not just plain old kings. Why do you go advocating Thingol or Dior? After all, if one can disregard the High part of the poll why not disregard the Noldor part? Or, for that matter, why limit it to Kings at all? Why not just go with favourite Middle-Earthian character? Or favourite fictional character? Or favourite person real or feigned?

Seriously, the way people around here are unable to vote within the confines of any poll presented irks me... If Fordim had wanted his silly poll to be about Noldorin kings in general, he would have made it about that, but he didn't.

You, Formendacil, must be amused when you hear that I voted for Fingon, because he was Maedhros's friend and saved him...

[the guy who be short]

And I just started to ponder, if capital punishment was a heavier or a lighter punishment for elves than for men?

Almost definitely worse, considering only three Kin-Slayings amongst the Eldar against countless by men.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

You, Formendacil, must be amused when you hear that I voted for Fingon, because he was Maedhros's friend and saved him...

Amused?

Perhaps...

But at least you actually voted for one of the real High Kings, rather than petulantly going on about a non-High King. If your reasons were silly... then, well, this is a silly poll.

Oh, and regarding a long-since-made point regarding Maedhros as High King of the Noldor before his abdication in favour of Fingolfin- he wasn't.

Or, rather, when he waived his right to throne in favour of Fingolfin, he was saying that he had never been High King, that it should have descended to him next anyway. Otherwise, his abdication would simply have meant the succession of Maglor to the Noldorin High Kingship. But by waiving the claim of the entire Fëanorian House on the pretext that Fingolfin was the Eldest of the Finwëans, he was saying that Fingolfin had been High King from Fëanor's death- thus saying that he had never been High King.

Whether or not Maedhros was legalistically RIGHT in that matter is a different question, but the point is that Maedhros himself basically said he was never High King.

[Lalaith]

Nothing silly about Thinolomien's reason. Same as mine....

[Raynor]

Turgon seems to have the attitude of the 'conqueror', and once settled in his new land, he becomes insular.

Then again, the valar should be quite sympathetic of his decision, seeing how far they went in isolating their own island from the threat of Melkor. [In Myths Transformed, Tolkien does qualify this "rival possessiveness" as an effect of the shadow on the valar.]

[Lalaith]

The insularity, the isolationism I can overlook. It's the brazen, arrogant ingratitude that sticks in my craw.

[Lalwendë]

Now I did not say I hated Turgon, but I do find him to be a questionable leader.

Before he becomes High King of the Noldor it is his perogative if he wishes to hide himself away, but afterwards it might be wrong to do such a thing; leaders need to be accessible to those whom they lead. Comparing this style of leadership with that of another, imagine if Aragorn decided to lock himself up in a tower and not actually get out there and lead the people? His active leadership was a major influence on his acceptance by the people. As seen with the reaction of Eol, I can well imagine that Turgon might have encountered difficulty in fostering allegiance from all the Elves.

And was it right for him to be isolationist when his kin were engaged in the struggle against Morgoth?

Aredhel demonstrates how even living in a perfect, beautiful and safe environment can be a confinement worse than being locked in a jail cell; she chooses adventure and danger over this paradise-prison. I often wonder if she actually allows Eol to woo her as he represents a 'free' Elf, someone who is quite definitely not under the control of her brother! An act of rebellion? Was she trying to state her new found independence?

And the strange thing is that she chooses Eol who then himself seeks to confine her. Sometimes those who have been in prison for a long time become 'institutionalised' and cannot fully cope with new found freedom. I think in seeking to confine his people in the way that he did, Turgon did them a disservice in the long run.

[Kuruharan]

It's the brazen, arrogant ingratitude that sticks in my craw.

I beg your pardon. Ingratitude for what?

And why do you have such a high opinion of Finrod and a low opinion of Turgon when the policies they set for their kingdoms were exactly the same? I detect a double-standard here.

Comparing this style of leadership with that of another, imagine if Aragorn decided to lock himself up in a tower and not actually get out there and lead the people? His active leadership was a major influence on his acceptance by the people.

The situations were hardly similar. Aragorn was trying to be made a king. Turgon was already a king. When he became High King (which I don't think really rose to the level of a "ceremonial" role) he "ruled" (much too strong a word) over a shattered people who had no further capacity for effective action. In a way, he was showing the example to the Noldor that their only hope lay in staying in the tall grass.

And was it right for him to be isolationist when his kin were engaged in the struggle against Morgoth?

For before he became High King: see above note regarding comparison to Finrod.

For after he became High King: What kin? What struggle? When he became High King, the sons of Feanor were broken nomads who could do nothing. Nargothrond was following exactly the same policy as Gondolin until the unstable Turin convinced the dimwit Orodreth to forsake it. Then Nargothrond was broken. Who or what was left? (And don't go mentioning Doriath, Thingol would have passed out at the prospect of calling Turgon "kin.")

In fact, Turgon attempted to engage in the only sensible action to save his people. Try to get to the Valar and abjectly beg forgiveness.

Aredhel demonstrates how even living in a perfect, beautiful and safe environment can be a confinement worse than being locked in a jail cell; she chooses adventure and danger over this paradise-prison.

It demonstrates that Aredhel was a spoiled brat. The Noldor were not in Middle-earth to have a jolly good time. There is a quote from an orc that might have done Aredhel a world of good, "Don't you know we're at war?" The Noldor were at war faced with an enemy far beyond their strength. The only thing they could do was make the best of their dire situation. Aredhel, in her empty-headed silliness, willfully disregarded this part of her brother's role and selfishly demanded her own way and the ultimate result was complete disaster. I'm often inclined to think that Maeglin's naughtiness was more a result of his mother's nature than his father's.

Was she trying to state her new found independence?

She had the opportunity to state her "independence" when she decided to join the rebellion. That was when she chose "freedom" from the Valar. However, freedom from the Valar meant subugation to her brother who was trying to protect her as well as the thousands of others who followed him. This she also must have chosen for herself, it is not like she did not have a father or other brother (both of whom were also kings) who did not lay down such strictures about freedom of movement (which as far as I can tell is all you mean by "freedom.") I don’t think Aredhel ever understood there were other people in the world than herself and other needs greater than her narrow wants.

Turgon did them a disservice in the long run.

He did them a gross disservice by taking part in leading them to Middle-earth at all. After this, he did the best he could (under the advice of no less than Ulmo). I'm afraid Aredhel is not compelling evidence that Turgon did not do well by his people.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Seriously, the way people around here are unable to vote within the confines of any poll presented irks me... If Fordim had wanted his silly poll to be about Noldorin kings in general, he would have made it about that, but he didn't. (Form)

Live with it.

I still think Finrod is the greatest--at least in his generation group. It's just that silly succession law that prevented him from claiming the throne.

[Lalaith]

For what you ask? Kuru, you *have* forgotten the Fen of Serech, haven't you?

The men of Dor-lomin sacrifice themselves so that Turgon and his boys can sneak back to their sodding hidden city. Hurin is captured after performing feats of arms and courage unmatched by any elf or man on Middle Earth before or since. For this deed, and for facilitating Turgon's escape, he and his kin are tortured for years by Morgoth. On release, he asks the elf for whom he offered up this incredible sacrifice, for refuge. Turgon refuses.

If that isn't ingratitude then I would like you to tell me what is.