Tol-in-Gaurhoth XVIII: The Play’s The Thing…

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I disagree (with LMP). Too much Seer talk can only help the Wolves. How do you envisage that it might ensnare them? Surely it is better to focus our discussions on who might be the Wolves, rather than on how the Seers should be behaving. ... I will be keeping an eye on those who seem to be encouraging this talk of Seers. *Glares at littlemanpoet and Aiwendil*

SPM, if you agreed with me at any point in time about anything, I would be greatly surprised. So that aspect of things is unchanged.

To answer your "envisage" question, however, I don't. I wait to see what I will see. If I "envisage" how I think things ought to look, it tends to limit my ability to see what's staring me in the face. Such as this: there's something about SPM that just seems a little off (this game). I can't really explain it, but will be reviewing his posts much more carefully. Things sound and look the same on the surface, but there's an undercurrent that I can't quite put my finger on, and it makes me wonder if he's furry. I'll be watching. Carefully.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Anguirel, I hear you. But I do suppose that the burden of being a wolf would cause any player a worry, and a tendency to blunt their words. I expect many 'Ooh, I'm sorry for voting this way's and 'I'll vote for you but I'm really not sure's—that kind of thing from any wolf, as long as they are not bold. I suppose that at least one and probably more are going to be extremely 'friendly', if you understand me.

Tar-ancalime, my worthy healed child, what has this Priest (who prayed for you every day) ever done to deserve such a vote? Seriously, I would have thought that my posts could offer at least the tiniest bit of insight. You youngsters; no respect for the Church and the traditions of this land... *shakes head*

[Aiwendil]

The Saucepan Man wrote:

I will be keeping an eye on those who seem to be encouraging this talk of Seers. *Glares at littlemanpoet and Aiwendil*

That said, his comments did also prompt all this Seer talk, which I don’t like.

And what harm, I ask thee, has "all this Seer talk" done? It seems to me that it's in the best interest of the village for us to be speak freely regarding strategy. Wolves thrive on secrecy. I trust that the Seers are intelligent enough to decide for themselves how to act, and that they will take advice from fellow villagers only when it seems suitable to them.

Well, enough about that. In general, though, I'm pleased to see that the Day 1 discussion has been largely one concerning strategy rather than a parade of random accusations.

My thoughts turn now toward my vote. In spite of the (I think) fairly productive discussion so far, it's still Day 1 and we have very little to go on. No one so far has struck me as particularly wolvish; in all likelihood (alas!) my vote will fall upon an innocent. But that's no reason to make it random; I shall at the least endeavour to make a (slightly) educated guess.

Of all the villagers, the one that seems to me to have been the most helpful so far is littlemanpoet. I am inclined, for the moment, to think him innocent. If he's a wolf, then he's one most adept at playing the "helpful thinker" role.

Boromir88 and SPM both seem to be helpful as well. At this early stage, I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call either of them "likely innocent". But it seems to me that neither should be lynched on the first Day.

Glirdan worries me slightly. He calls for the lynching of quiet villagers and then votes for Gil-Galad. Now, I can see how an innocent villager could easily do both of those things. But the vote for Gil-Galad seems a very "safe" move for a wolf.

tar-ancalime is another one I have my eye on. Perhaps I'm reading too much into her posts, but it looks to me like she's eager to find excuses to bring suspicion upon people - first with her proposed moratorium on Seer talk (suggesting perhaps that anyone who talks about the Seers is to be suspected) and then with her statement that Spawn's summary "rubs me the wrong way". She has backed off of both of these, declaring that her moratorium was not intended to be a wolf-test and that Spawn's summary is not suspicious. Could be a wolf testing various approaches and backing off when they seem not to be working.

I realize I am grasping at straws here, but that's as it must be. Again, neither Glirdan nor tar strikes me as "likely a wolf". But based on the rather meager evidence we have so far, I am leaning toward voting for one of them .

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Dancing daughter of the big spider

Aiwendil: Says random accusations are useless for innocents, wants to have serious discussion, asks questions about good ways to spot a wolf, how the Gifteds should act and how to vote. Wants to spread votes wider than lmp and thinks approx. 5-6 is a good number. Thinks we don't have to worry about the false Seer so much even though they might cause confusion. Says there's no need to stop talking about the Seers although they should remain hidden. Says the Seer is most useful when they're dead and we can be sure of their identity.

I come back to you at the turn of the tide, bringing news of cyclopentanes and thiotriazoles. According to my instruments..... AIWENDIL IS A WOLF!!!

Let's get this day-one accusation started

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Now, I know we don't have much to go on as yet. But it seems to me that random accusations and similar nonsense will only help the Wolves. Meseems the sooner we get down to some serious discussion, the better the chances of our village surviving.

(post #7)

At the point this was written, there was nothing to go on with. And random accusations are not as useless as my featured acusee will make you think. If you are lucky, you may get the spotlight on a wolf, who will hopefully then make a mistake a honest villager will pick on later. Discussions can be left for later on the day, when villagers like myself have at least some evidence to go on. Such as the one presented above and the next one coming up

The Questions:
Even though one may think that a wolf will want to take a leading role in the village, so that people follow him (or her) while he carefully chooses plausible innocents to be lynched, it is quite a risky move. Only a bold wolf would do such thing, but how about Aiwendil's move? He is basically letting others take the lead, but at the same time he's putting himself on the 'good' side of the leaders. SpM, Morm or LMP are lilkely the most persuasive characters and Aiwendil seems to be trying to get them to trust him. Smart move, if you fear they may make a good case against you, isn't it?

Following piece of 'evidence'

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I think people may be worrying a bit too much about the false Seer. True, his/her presence may lead to confusion. Certainly it would be better not to have a false Seer. But bear in mind that a 'dream' from the false Seer is no more likely to be wrong than a random guess by a bewildered villager. As long as we all bear the existence of the false Seer in mind, I think we should get along all right. I certainly don't see any call for a moratorium on talking about the Seer; though I would, again, advise the Seers themselves to stay completely hidden. Note also that, at least in my opinion, the chief value of the Seer is to be gotten after the Seer has died (after a long and fruitful life, I hope) - and when either Seer dies his or her true nature will be revealed to us.

I am not too comfortable with Seer talk in general this early... anything more than passing comments on them makes me cringe... but what really bugs me is what I bolded above. While it is true that we will not know whether the person that says to be the Seer is the true or false seer, it won't take long to realize who the false seer is once he(she) comes forward.

It is an astute and bold move to say that the Seer is useless 'till dead, master Aiwendil. That way, as long as the wolves don't nail the true seer too late, we villagers won't be able to trust whom we believe to be the Seer. And I think Aiwendil is also over-stating the problems the false seer might bring upon us. After all, it might not be long until we lynch someone the false seer has dreamt of and then he(she) will know who he(she) is.

I think you are smart enough to realize that, Aiwendil.... I think you are trying to sow dissent and uncertainty in our ranks.

Let's move on to post #60

And what harm, I ask thee, has "all this Seer talk" done?

Nothing, I think it's helping me to find a wolf

It seems to me that it's in the best interest of the village for us to be speak freely regarding strategy. Wolves thrive on secrecy

Actually, as it has been mentioned before, if we give out our strategy freely, the wolves will know how to avoid suspicion. It's just a matter of 'agreeing' on suspecting a certain kind of behaviour and then avoiding it no matter what!

in all likelihood (alas!) my vote will fall upon an innocent.

I'm never confident on those who try to downplay their votes, but I have done that before, so this is mildly a comment rather than a true piece of evidence. Although in the light of the preceeding points...

Comments on SPM, LMP and Boro
Again, we see Aiwendil trying to be nice to the most vocal ones.

Comments on Tar-ancalime
It's an easy target... If I wasn't so 'convinced' on Aiwendil's guilt, she'd be my prime suspect... but I think Tar-ancalime's mistakes look more like an innocent trying to do too much while Aiwendil's mistakes seem like a wolf trying to hide in plain view.

Again, neither Glirdan nor tar strikes me as "likely a wolf". But based on the rather meager evidence we have so far, I am leaning toward voting for one of them .

Again, trying to downplay his likely vote. While an innocent may say it once, it's now twice in the same post.

To conclude, I think that Aiwendil is being far too safe in his speech. Safe enough that it makes me think he's got something to hide. He's not playing a safe game for a villager because no villager needs to make sure the most vocal one's don't suspect him... an innocent villager knows he's innocent and trusts he will survive long enough to prove so. A guilty wolf needs to make 'friends' quickly, so that he can cast suspicion elswhere without any backlash when it's shown that the lynched person was an innocent (or even worse, a gifted).

For those reasons I say we perform the following reaction

Aiwendil + Gallows =====> Dead wolf

I will come back later with my vote... you can all probably guess who it will most likely go to.

[Farael]

Sorry, I realize you might find my quote of Dancing Spawn a little confusing... I meant to add that it was her comments what got the ball rolling against Aiwendil in my head, but I must have forgotten to write that in. Good job Dancing, but you are not off the hook just yet.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, the time approaches for me to vote, as I cannot be sure that I will be back later. But first …

I don’t particularly like Gil-Galad’s reaction vote for Glirdan, but it does seem fairly standard behaviour for him. I am wary of suspecting the quiet and/or confusing villagers when that is there usual pattern of behaviour, but that of course does not clear him either. I would like to hear more from him, but I’m not confident that we will.

Originally Posted by tar-ancalime

Something about dancing spawn's post really rubs me the wrong way. It's so long, so intricate, and so devoid of any new information. Being as it's the first day and all, and as my vote is going to have to come in the next few hours, unless I see anything that compels me to place my vote elsewhere I'm likely to go with the dancing spider.

Originally Posted by tar-ancalime

Mostly random, Eomer, but I have to say: if you're innocent I'm glad to have you on my team, but if you're not I want you out of here before you even get started.

This seems mighty strange to me. As far as I can see, nothing occurred between these two comments to “compel” tar to place her vote elsewhere. While I disagreed with her analysis of dancing spawn’s summary, I can see no particular reason to vote for Eomer either. And I am entirely unconvinced of the merits of voting for someone that you accept will be a valuable ally if innocent on the off chance that they may not. That would apply to most here.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I would like to point out that I myself don't see much sign of malign intent in Celuien's so-called "diverted accusation" to tar-ancalime and I.

Well, it is Day 1, so we don’t have a whole lot to go on. I regard it a suspicious, but I would prefer to hear more from her before drawing any stronger conclusion than that.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

... there's something about SPM that just seems a little off (this game). I can't really explain it, but will be reviewing his posts much more carefully. Things sound and look the same on the surface, but there's an undercurrent that I can't quite put my finger on, and it makes me wonder if he's furry. I'll be watching. Carefully.

Well, well, what a surprise. Lmp and The Saucepan Man suspect each other. Of course, it is rather difficult for me to comment on my seeming “a little off” to you.

[Anguirel]

I'm strongly tempted to vote for LMP just to give everyone a nice, cosy, everything's falling out just as usual feeling. But I think I will restrain this urge for the time being.

So far-

Glirdan voted Gil

Nilp voted Farael

Lhuna voted Glirdan

Gil revenge-voted Glirdan

and tar-ancalime voted Eomer of the Rohirrim.

This means that I'm inclined to clear tar-ancalime for the moment. I don't agree with her choice, but it looks like a sensible and worthy attempt to stop the village getting bogged down in a Glirdan-Gil feud.

Gil on the other hand committed the cardinal sin of changing a throwaway early vote into a potential bandwagon. However, I'm not going to vote for him either, because it would be conformist and tedious to do so.

The people tempting me at the moment are three old favourites-LMP as mentioned above;

LMP's rival the Saucepan Man. While LMP's assertion that he possesses an unusual malevolent undercurrent seems like so much hot-air, the Viscount Kettle is sounding more reasonable in their confrontation at present and I always like to discomfit reasonable people;

And Boromir88, above all. For all Aiwendil's assertion that he looks like one of the helpful ones, he hasn't really said all that much, except the infamous "Seems to be business as usual" post. A lot of noose-babble too, well shown up by dancing spawn. Yes, I think Boromir88 is my likely target, unless the need of the moment changes.

[Garin]

I am quite displeased that I will not have time to examine every post to the extent I would like to and my vote will not be as informed as I desire. Tomorrow is another day.

Anguirel said: Yes, I think Boromir88 is my likely target, unless the need of the moment changes.

I guess i didn't appreciate Boro's early statement about approving the village's vote for the wolf. Probably, just playing in character. But it also sounds like a wolf's dream job.

This is all I can manage today.

Probably will only have time for a quick vote.

Good luck, all.

[Celuien]

Okay then, I'm back. Looks like there's been a lot going on since I took a nap and went to work this morning...

First, I'm not inclined to vote for Glirdy. Under most circumstances, I would find his early vote for Gil alarming, but then I checked the village bulletin board and saw his notice of time constraints. So I don't find that nearly enough to go on and would rather give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

For that matter, I'm not really finding much to go on, though, like SpM, I find tar-ancalime's shift from suspicion of spawn to a vote for Eomer odd. Must watch carefully.

As for my 'diversion,' Ang's right. Just occupational banter to open a conversation. Shine the lights on my lily pad as you see fit. I enjoy attention.

More later. I have to read the thread some more.

[Aiwendil]

Farael: What can I say? Except - sorry, wrong. In some cases, I think you are simply reading too much into my words. In others, you seem to have misunderstood me. For instance, you say:

And I think Aiwendil is also over-stating the problems the false seer might bring upon us.

But what I had in fact said was:

I think people may be worrying a bit too much about the false Seer

If that's "over-stating the problems", I'll eat my hat (once it's been properly seasoned, of course).

Also, I did not claim "that the Seer is useless 'till dead". I said that it seems to me that the Seer's greatest value is after he/she has been revealed (usually by death).

Anguirel wrote:

And Boromir88, above all. For all Aiwendil's assertion that he looks like one of the helpful ones, he hasn't really said all that much, except the infamous "Seems to be business as usual" post.

You make a good point. Looking back, I see that Boromir88 has appeared helpful while saying very little. It seems to me that this is just what a wolf would most like to do. However, I still don't see any particular reason to suspect Boromir at this point.

My vote will probably go to Tar-ancalime, for reasons stated earlier (and not to Glirdan because it seems better for the votes to be spread out). But I am not pressed for time and I will consider things again before making that final.

[The Saucepan Man]

And now I must vote.

For reasons that I have stated earlier, my main suspects at this point in time are elempi, Celuin and Lhunadarwen. I am also concerned about tar-ancalime’s flip-flop vote. However, she was talking sense before that so I am prepared, for now, to regard it as an attempt to break up the “Glirdan-Gil” feud, as Anguirel puts it.

I will content myself with keeping an eye on lmp for the time being. I find him suspicious but, if innocent, he will undoubtedly be of great benefit to the village. And a vote for him from me now seems a bit peevish, if you get my meaning.

Since I said that I would prefer to hear further from Celuin before acting on my suspicions arising from her reaction to morm’s random accusation, I will hold to that. There is simply not enough to go on with her at this stage.

Which leaves me with Lhunardawen. Her vote for Glirdan seemed to be picking on too easy a target for my liking, given his very early vote for Gil-Galad. And despite trying to label herself as one of the quiet ones, she seems to have been rather eager to make her presence felt while she was here. It’s not a lot to go on, but that’s pretty standard for Day 1. And it’s just about the most that I have to go on at the moment.

++LHUNARDAWEN

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

If that's "over-stating the problems", I'll eat my hat (once it's been properly seasoned, of course).

Also, I did not claim "that the Seer is useless 'till dead". I said that it seems to me that the Seer's greatest value is after he/she has been revealed (usually by death).

Garlic or salt?
In the same sentence you say

But bear in mind that a 'dream' from the false Seer is no more likely to be wrong than a random guess by a bewildered villager

Which is far too 'dramatic' given that, for example, should the False Seer 'discover' a gifted or a wolf, we can be comfident that that person will NOT be a gifted or a wolf(probability of the random draw being a gifted/wolf is 3/19 and the probability of that person being actually a gifted or a wolf is also 3/19... therefore the probability of the person that the False Seer dreamt a gifted/wolf being actually a gifted/wolf is 3/19 X 3/19 =0.025 or 2.5%). While it's not nearly as certain as what the True Seer will say, it's still something to go with, specially this early in the game.

And while, true, I maybe expressed myself wrong.... you say "people are worrying too much, the false seer is completely useless." yet I just showed you he's not totally useless. Worst case scenario, another known innocent. And then you say "the true seer is most useful when dead" so my point that you are trying to move us away from looking for hints of Seer'ism 'till the Seer is dead (when it might be too late to do anything about it, as guessing at subtle 'hints' is by no means a science.) still holds. Or I think it does.

If you really want to adress my suspcions, do explain why you try to befriend all the loud ones?

Until you do, and given that I must go now (quite ironically, to a Chem Lab in RL)

I shall vote

++Aiwendil

[Formendacil]

My apologies to all for my lack of participation thus far... coming down sick at work does very little for the brain- or for playing this game in general.

That said, I've always found posting on Day 1 to be a general waste of time for me. As noted elsewhere, I try to guess Werewolves by who seems to be playing wrong. With Day 1 being a journey through the absurd and with the game not having gone on long enough to detect any oddities in playing style, it seems pointless for me to post, since I have nothing to say.

Furthermore, the old police adage about "Anything you say can and will be used against you" comes to mind. If one has nothing to say, then posting randomly so as not to appear suspicious is pointless, since people will find your posting just as suspicious as your not-posting.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

And Boromir88, above all. For all Aiwendil's assertion that he looks like one of the helpful ones, he hasn't really said all that much, except the infamous "Seems to be business as usual" post. .... Yes, I think Boromir88 is my likely target, unless the need of the moment changes.

Up to post # 63 so far....

I'm glad to see this growing suspicion. Boromir's attempt to instill fear in the same quoted post got my notice, as it did SPM's (I believe).

That's all for now.

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, here's a reconstruction of the voting so far, hope it's soon enough:

1. Glirdan -> Gil-Galad (1)
2. Nilp -> Farael (1)
3. Lhuna -> Glirdan (1)
4. Gil-Galad -> Glirdan (1)
5. Tar Ancalime -> Eomer (1)
6. SPM -> Lhuna (1)
7. Anguirel -> Boromir (1) (glad to see it by the way)
8. Farael -> Aiwendil (1)
9. Formendacil -> Boromir (2) (right on!)
10. Mormegil -> Gil-Galad (2)
11. Eomer -> Lhuna (2)
12. Aiwendil -> Tar (1)
13. Kath -> Gil-Galad (3) (grrrr!)
14. Holbytlass -> Tar (2)
15. Celuien -> Gil-Galad (4) (double grr!)
16. Spawn -> Lhuna (3)
17. Garin -> Boromir (3) (good!)

and now for my addition:

++ Boromir88

Simply most suspicious.

[Garin]

I'm afraid that I, Garin, have not been as participatory in our village affairs in the manner that I ussually like to be.

I was about to second Nilp's early call to silence the silents for once and all, because this Is my usual initial suggestion in these god-forsaken villages. File it in the 'better than nothing but pretty close to it" category.
Now I can understand how events can turn against you and force an abbreviated absence. However, I think our village should address those that are repeatedly quiet/unuseful.

I've just starting reading the last several posts, and will try to add something else soon.

Oh and I forgot the theatrics...

Abercrombie and Shelob are both dead?
WHHHHYYYYYYY??? NOOOOOO!!!! What diety would allow this to happen? They shall be avenged.

As for those villagers trying to fill their purses on the villages' misfortune... I offer the village free bread. We can't get the lupines on empty stomachs. It is a dark rye that was Shelob's favorite. Help yourself.

She was the only one who bought it anyway.

edit: Grammar
edit: Glirdan was the one that suggested the lynch o' the silents. Sorry, I was in a hurry.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Some thoughts of a few villagers:

- Gil received a vote from Glirdan who suggested getting rid of those who don't post much because one of the three wolves is usually a quiet one (this theory may not apply in this village because I think everybody's quite talkative). Well, as it happens, Gil finds now Glirdan wolvish (or was it innocent/ cobblerish?), pulls his usual "I'm stupid, ignore me" act and votes for Glirdan.

There's nothing unexpected in Gil's behaviour and Glirdan's vote for him seems a bit unfair as Gil hadn't even said a word when this vote was cast. However, I think Glirdan just has some traumas of quieter villagers that cannot be healed and I don't think his vote itself looks very wolvish.

- I just noticed that I accidentally left Formendacil out of the summary, but then again, he didn't even say much... I would like to hear more from him as well as from Kath, Celuien and Farael.

- Much of what Lhuna has said is spoken through her role. That doesn't look suspicious to me, but her vote for Glirdan is oddly unreasoned. Was it just because Glirdan suggested killing the silent ones and Lhuna thought that she belonged into that category? However, it is Day One, but I wonder if she really thought that Glirdan was the most likely person to be a wolf at that point. If so, why did she say: "He's most likely innocent, but what can I do?" An excuse for her vote if we should actually lynch Glirdan and then start looking at Lhuna?

- One last thing, it's worrying that I'm getting paranoid already on Day 1, but did someone just say that we want to kill The Rohirrim? *sigh*

I shall go to eat grass with my sheep. I'll be back later.

[Garin]

I failed to mention my distaste for this false seer business. It gives us a quite a dilemna. (Really Garin? Do go on..)

Our best hope is that the village or even the wolves, kill him or her-- thus revealing their identity. Not that I am clamoring for the death of an innocent, the Falsey just seems to benefit the wolves more.
They know who they are and know who is totally off the mark in identifying them.

I'm sure I am repeating what others have said. I admittedly still need to read several posts.

I have no voting strategy and no suspects, as of yet. I will likely vote late.

I won't say much into I can read all of the posts.

Back to baking....

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Garin

Our best hope is that the village or even the wolves, kill him or her-- thus revealing their identity. Not that I am clamoring for the death of an innocent, the Falsey just seems to benefit the wolves more.
They know who they are and know who is totally off the mark in identifying them.
.

True, but worst case scenario is that False Seer identifies an innocent as a wolf and the village acts on the false information. So where does that take us?

1) We've attacked an innocent and reduced our population by one, something we're sadly likely to do anyway over the next few days. Then we the information given was incorrect and also know who the False Seer is. So...
2) We've identified one known innocent for the next day. One less person for the suspect list in the next day's discussions. Unless the wolves decide to eat him/her overnight. Then we're back where we started.

Altogether, I don't think the False Seer hurts the village that much, since we're not likely to be following directions for long if incorrect.

The only caveat would be a wolf impersonating a False Seer. But that's an event that would bring one or both Seers out fairly quickly and reveal a wolf in the third candidate. That's not something I'm particularly expecting to see.

And that, my friends, will be the last Seer related commentary I make toDAY.

*continues reviewing the discussion archives*

[Anguirel]

Well, I believe I now have the confidence to vote thus:

++BOROMIR88

I have often suffered through refraining to vote for Boromir...but never through voting for him! Let's see if this fits the pattern.

[Celuien]

Of Aiwendil and Farael:

I have to disagree with Farael's analysis of our local cook. Aiwendil merely looks to have been discussing strategy and feeling the same day 1 uncertainty with regard to his vote that should pretty much be expected given that there's no real evidence at this point. And honestly, I don't see anything in Aiwendil's commentary that jumps out as deceptive or distracting. While Farael is concerned over the 'safety' of his posts, it doesn't really seem like the same type of 'safe' post I'd expect from the lupine. It's only safe in that what he said seemed rational and non-controversial. But what he said was helpful, not an empty. And while I know there's been some upset over discussing gifteds early, it's a reasonable enough to address concerns over the un-gifted member of our Seer pair (there, I went and said that word again ). Could Aiwendil be a wolf? Yes. Any of us could be. But I don't find it particularly likely right now. And so I'll dismiss him from my ballot toDAY.

And as for Farael, the boldness of his accusations clears him from toDAY's suspect list as far as I'm concerned. It would be a brazen wolf who would come out that noisily against a villager today when it would be so much easier to join the general confusion and bandwagon or to make a random selection that leaves no evidence for future discussion.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

We have to remember that Glirdan had to vote early. I must get that in as it looks like I shall also have to vote early.

My guess is that he chose to vote for Gil because Gil is notoriously quiet and hard to decipher anyway. Lhuna voted for Glirdan pretty much on the basis that he was the only one to vote so far. Gil voted for Glirdan pretty much out of spite. It might be a tremendous place for Glirdan to hide (the very first vote) but I am definitely leaning towards Glirdan's innocence; and possibly a bit of foolishness on the part of Lhuna and Gil. Wolvish? I cannot tell.