The Great Eagle Mystery

[Farael]

This sure is an interesting topic... but I think there are two points that are not being considered.

-If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) at the Council of Elrond, it's said that a frontal attack on Mordor would undobtedly fail. A lot of eagles flying straight into Mordor would be considered a frontal attack, right?

-Now, even if the Eagles managed to beat out the Nazghul (or their lovely birds, because a grounded Nazghul is not able to fight a flying eagle) avoided the poisonous gases and other such things and were not tempted by the ring... what would stop Sauron from detaching a couple thousand orcs, men and even Oliphaunts to Mt. Doom? or even better, why would HE not be there? If I'm not mistaken, it's in the movie not the book where it's said that Sauron can't regain his shape. I might be wrong, but there's nothing in the book to say that Sauron could not go there and ruin the party for the eagles.

Even if Sauron could not take a human(oid) shape, there would certainly be A LOT of orcs and such things clogging everything up. Heck, I'm sure Sauron would be willing to force the orcs to put up even wooden structures on top of where the molten lava is to get the Ring... and if a couple thousand Orcs die in the fires, whawt does he care? once he's got the ring it's game over.

[Raynor]

I might be wrong, but there's nothing in the book to say that Sauron could not go there and ruin the party for the eagles.

In letter #246, Tolkien states that:

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

In the same letter, he comments on how Sauron himself would come to claim the ring from Frodo (if he didn't destroy it). In The black gate opens, TTT, Gollum says that "he has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand", which is a further indication that Sauron has a body.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In letter #246, Tolkien states that:
In the same letter, he comments on how Sauron himself would come to claim the ring from Frodo (if he didn't destroy it). In The black gate opens, TTT, Gollum says that "he has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand", which is a further indication that Sauron has a body.

Thanks Raynor, I do not have the letters but I did remember Gollum's quote. Yet I was not sure it might have meant something else. Thanks a lot.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, that the real question concerning the eagles is not, if they would make it to fly to the Orodruin with Frodo and the Ring, but if they are allowed to interfere in the events of Middle-Earth.
It has been often posted, that the Eagles are the messengers of Manwe in Middle-Earth. Consequently they are under the control of Manwe. But we know, that the Valar, of course including Manwe, sent the Istari to Middle-Earth to assist the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth in their fight against the Dark Lord Sauron.
But the Valar didn't send the Istari to lead the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron and consequently play the main-role in defeating Sauron. So why shouldn't the same rules count for the Eagles?

When the Valar wanted the Eagles to play a main-role in freeing Middle-Earth, why did they make the efforts that the Istari were diminished in power and their mission had only supporting character?

But flying with Frodo to Mount Doom means exactly taking a(the) main-role in defeating Sauron.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

I think, that the real question concerning the eagles is not, if they would make it to fly to the Orodruin with Frodo and the Ring, but if they are allowed to interfere in the events of Middle-Earth.
It has been often posted, that the Eagles are the messengers of Manwe in Middle-Earth. Consequently they are under the control of Manwe. But we know, that the Valar, of course including Manwe, sent the Istari to Middle-Earth to assist the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth in their fight against the Dark Lord Sauron.
But the Valar didn't send the Istari to lead the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron and consequently play the main-role in defeating Sauron. So why shouldn't the same rules count for the Eagles?

When the Valar wanted the Eagles to play a main-role in freeing Middle-Earth, why did they make the efforts that the Istari were diminished in power and their mission had only supporting character?

But flying with Frodo to Mount Doom means exactly taking a(the) main-role in defeating Sauron.

Agreed. None of the other explanations (tired eagles, eagle zappers, etc.) make much sense and seem to be grasping at straws. On a side note, I disagree with Frodo needing to make the long jouney in order to be "tempered" enough to release the Ring---I believe the opposite. The Ring's power over Frodo grew with every passing moment of the journey, until it nearly had him in the end. I think that Frodo was in much better physical and psychological---and spiritual---condition ealier in his journey...

I prefer to consider the Eagles as messengers of Manwe and not wanting to take an active role in changing the course of history in Middle-earth. Their actions (rescuing Gandalf from Orthanc could be viewed as an "issue" between Istari that never should have occured in the first place---and rescuing Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom as action after the conclusion of the war had been determined).

One question though: What of the Eagles involvement in The Battle of Five Armies? (Other, of course, than that Tolkien had not adequately thought out his mythology at that point...)

Also, the Eagles mandate of non-involvement aside, there is a point about them vs. Nazgul that I would like to make. At the Council of Elrond (where the decision to have an Eagle carry Frodo would have been made) the ringwraiths had just been washed away at the Ford. When Frodo asks if that is the end of them, Gandalf replies, "No, their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed. But there is nothing more to fear from them at present." If the Eagles had been an option, the timing could not have been better---the Ringwraiths were crippled and far from their Fell beasts. And I know of no other winged forces of Sauron...

[Formendacil]

Personally, I hold to the theory that the Eagles carrying Frodo to Mordor would have been WAY too obvious...

Not from a storyline point of view, but from and in-story point of view.

The Eagles, you know, are pretty conspicuous creatures. Any sighting of them tends to herald something big. So Sauron, who's eyes are constantly scouring the West for signs of suspicious activity (like Aragorn...), and whose Palantír handily solves the problem of limited sightrange, would most likely have seen the Eagles coming.

What then?

Well, even the Eagles take a certain amount of time to go from Point A to Point B. Sauron, who certainly would have had Rivendell at the top of his "to watch" list at the time Frodo was there, would have noticed almost immediately if the Eagles had picked up some passengers, and headed straight to Mordor.

Sauron, who was in a corporeal form, and more than able to move and fight (contrary to what PJ would have us think...) would certainly have time to get to Orodruin, and camp out there.

And even without the Winged Nazgûl, there were undoubtedly several ways in which Sauron could attack a flying eagle. But even if there wasn't, he could just wait at Mt. Doom until Frodo, Gandalf, and the Eagles showed up.

What then?

Well, since Gandalf was still Gandalf the Grey, and had not yet received his greater mandate as Gandalf the White, he probably would have died. After all, the Balrog got him, and Sauron was a lot stronger than the Balrog. Meanwhile, all it takes is a host of orks to keep Frodo occupied (or even just a big boulder in front of the entrance) so that he can't drop the Ring in.

With Gandalf and any other companions dead, Sauron can now turn his full attention to Frodo. Face to face, the Ring wanting to return to Sauron, is there any doubt what would happen?

Sauron would regain the Ring.

Remember, the great strength of Gandalf and Elrond's plan was it's utter foolishness. The reason that was so successful was that it meant that it was an IGNOREABLE thought, and so Frodo and Sam were able to SECRETLY sneak into Mordor. Eventually, Gandalf even went so far to aid this secrecy that he risked pretty much half the military might of the West in a suicidal march on the Morannon.

The Eagles aiding the Battle at the Morannon was therefore an asset at this point, since it added to the spectacle and likely helped keep Sauron's attention on the West. As for the Battle of Five Armies, there was no Sauronic threat at the time, nor was there any reason for secrecy.

That, basically, is my opinion.

[Sardy]

Not sure that I agree. Sauron's downfall was that, in his lust for power, he never in his wildest imagination considered that anyone might try to destroy the Ring. THAT was the strength of Gandalf's plan, not it's "foolishness."

That said, if Frodo (or Gandalf, or Aragorn, or Glorfindel) were to attempt to ride an Eagle to Mt. Doom, they would have had a very good (better that Frodo walking it there) chance. I still contend that the Ringwraiths were currently out-of-commission. Sauron would never have blocked passage to Mt. Doom (either with orcs or boulders) because he would have assumed that whoever was riding the Eagle was riding in to challenge him mano-e-mano using his own ring against him. Sauron would've been shocked and dismayed as the Eagle swooped right on past his tower and on to the Crack of Doom, leaving the Dark Lord with no time to do anything but watch as the Ring's inevitable unmaking proceeded.