'Which is as Fate to all Things Else’

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

But I am not speaking of one of the Valar. Eru, by any standard, created all of Ea. I'm pretty sure that anything that happens within it cannot exceed what he wills. It completely undermines him as the Creator. It's like a potter making a pot, and suddenly the pot sprouts a handle where the potter did not want one.

But didn't the Numenorean assault on Valinor 'exceed what He willed'? Yes, he stepped in & stopped them - in a pretty extreme way: a way that suggests that he not only wanted to stop the invasion but also to punish the sinful Numenoreans as a people.

What this shows to me is that Men are free to act not only beyond the restrictions of the Music, but also to act in ways which are totally against the will of Eru - in fact, they are so 'free' that Eru cannot control them at all, & if push comes to shove, the only way He can stop them is by using his superior force.

Which of course brings us to the other great rebellion - that of the Noldor. Was that a freely willed act or part of the Music? My argument (following Flieger) has been that Elvish freedom is restricted to the moral sphere. So, the Noldor will return to Middle-earth in pursuit of Morgoth. They have no option - their freedom is in the way they return. If Feanor had agreed to surrender the Silmarils & sided with the Valar the revolt would not have happened, the Valar would probably have made the decision to go after Morgoth with a large force. Hence, the Noldor get back to Middle-earth one way or another.

Perhaps what we have with Elves is something along the lines of moral/spiritual freedom within physical constraints (ie they can make moral choices about how they will do things, but cannot control what happens to them, only how it happens). Men, on the other hand, have the same moral/spiritual freedomn but with far weaker physical constraints (obviously there are physical restraints on Men - death being the principal one of course, but they have to eat & sleep, they can't just flap their arms & fly, etc). The point is, in terms of action in the world Men's actions are known by Eru but not dictated by Him directly or indirectly, while Elves actions are both known & dictated. Where both races have freedom is in the moral sphere, which even Eru cannot control.

Sorry if I've repeated earlier points - I've only had time to skim the thread.