The Hobbit - Chapter 05 - Riddles in the Dark

[JennyHallu]

Or first Smeagol, and Gollum arrived after Bilbo cheated. In the Two Towers and the Return of the King Smeagol always turned to Gollum when he felt he had been wronged.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Or first Smeagol, and Gollum arrived after Bilbo cheated. In the Two Towers and the Return of the King Smeagol always turned to Gollum when he felt he had been wronged.

I was thinking along the same lines (or I was saying that in my previous post).

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Another interesting thing is that Gollum's logic either fails or then he's very very suspicious: he assumes that Bilbo has gone to the gate though he had just asked for help to get to the gates. Do you think his logic fails or that he just assumes that Bilbo lied to him? This has troubled me.

[JennyHallu]

I think he assumed Bilbo was dishonest.

Bilbo had, after all, just cheated on the Riddle-game. And he had been clever enough (ok, lucky enough, but how does Gollum know that?) to steal the Ring. And Gollum had not had contact with anything more intelligent than a fish for a long time. He could only have predicted Bilbo's actions based on what he himself would do. And he would have lied. I always figured that Gollum believed Bilbo only came down to his pool in order to deliberately steal the Ring. Paranoid little guy...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Bilbo cheated on the riddle game? I disagree. There have been discussions of this in the past, and if I remember rightly, it was generally agreed that when Gollum accepted the question, he brought forth no objection, thereby making it "official". As a matter of fact, there may be a reference to this in the Letters - I'll check and come back later.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Bilbo cheated on the riddle game? I disagree. There have been discussions of this in the past, and if I remember rightly, it was generally agreed that when Gollum accepted the question, he brought forth no objection, thereby making it "official". As a matter of fact, there may be a reference to this in the Letters - I'll check and come back later.

I say it was cheating, but there's no problem because Gollum accepted it. So it's acceptable cheating.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Gollum did tacitly go along with The Baggins cheating,
which brings up an interesting question, if nice
Smeagol, who only wants to play the game correctly,
had continued to insist on playing the game properly
instead of helping out Thief Baggins by only asking
for three guesses (a poor trade), would
Bilbo have had to go along with being eaten?
Or, more to the point, how would Tolkien have
gotten Bilbo out of his predicament honorably?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Gollum did tacitly go along with The Baggins cheating,
which brings up an interesting question, if nice
Smeagol had insisted on playing the game properly
would Bilbo have had to go along with being eaten?
Or, more to the point, how would Tolkien have
gotten Bilbo out of his predicament honorably?

The first thing that comes into my mind is apologising and makin up a new question. But if he didn't come up with any...

[JennyHallu]

Kinder Gollum, less malevolent Ring...

This chapter is like echoes (except they're going the wrong way) of the canon. The form is there, but the spirit is only hinted at.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Gollum did tacitly go along with The Baggins cheating,
which brings up an interesting question, if nice
Smeagol, who only wants to play the game correctly,
had continued to insist on playing the game properly
instead of helping out Thief Baggins by only asking
for three guesses (a poor trade), would
Bilbo have had to go along with being eaten?
Or, more to the point, how would Tolkien have
gotten Bilbo out of his predicament honorably?

I thought about too, and conclusions I've come to are unfavorable for Bilbo - as it seems to me that both cheated from the outset (at least as the chapter stands in revision) - nor Gollum, neither Bilbo were going to stick to the promise if they've lost.

Kind of undulation of Bilbo's character through the chapter - he starts with fear (as he wakes in the dark), than goes through period of bravery uprise (as he walks in the dark holding on to his sword (yep, holding on to it rather than simply hodling it), than he succumbs to lies through fear (as I do not doubt he would not simply let Gollum eat him), and than again through bravery to pity (or Pity, as Gandalf later put it).