Outrage?

[davem]

I think that the elven Art too alters the world, but it still remains "good", as noted above - they weren't "bulldozing the real world, nor coercing other wills".

Well, they weren't 'coercing' perhaps, but they were controlling - there was no 'stain' on Lorien. We can only take this to mean no parasites, no fungi, nothing to mar its 'perfection'. As I said, the Lorien we are introduced to in LotR is a 'hyper-natural' place, almost a higher state of nature, a glimpse of Arda Unmarred, yet there is no sense that it has been 'forced' into being that way. We don't even question how it is that way, we simply accept it. It is not an 'alteration' of the primary world but rather another 'state' of it.

Once Tolkien introduces the story of Galadriel's desire to rule a land free of death & corruption & her use of Nenya to bring this about, suddenly we are dealing with "bulldozing the real world,", because she is not allowing natural processes to occur. She will not allow death to enter in to Lorien. The trees are not allowedto die, parasites are not allowed to exist, because she does not want them to. Her suppport of the Ringbearer is a surrendering to nature, an allowing it to be. Only then could she truly be herself.

Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation"

This may describe the Elves at their best (Vanyar & Teleri), but I can't see that it applies to either the exiled Noldor or the Sindar. Certainly his condemnation of them as 'embalmers' would seem to contradict this statement.

[Raynor]

Once Tolkien introduces the story of Galadriel's desire to rule a land free of death & corruption & her use of Nenya to bring this about, suddenly we are dealing with "bulldozing the real world,", because she is not allowing natural processes to occur.

I wonder what is natural indeed (in Ea); as far as I can see it, a place in which the essence of Melkor is spread throughout creation, accelerating all decay, phisical and not only, is not natural. The fact that she tries to stay that decay isn't in any less blamable that the efforts of the valar to undo the evils of Melkor. Is the world bulldozed in Valinor? I think not - and that it occurs only where the influence of the Marrer can reach.

This may describe the Elves at their best (Vanyar & Teleri), but I can't see that it applies to either the exiled Noldor or the Sindar.

From the Sil, we pretty much know that the vanyar "received song and poetry" - artful indeed, but it is not the Art we are talking about; the Teleri are enamoured of the sea, with the height of their Art were the swan ships of Alqualonde.

The noldor? Oh, the noldor.. . They learned mostly from Aule, the smith of gods, and thus became "the most skilled of the Elves" (cf. The begining of days, Silmarillion). In Of Eldamar and the princes of Eldalie, we are also told that the "Noldor were beloved of Aule, and he and his people came often among them. Great became their knowledge and their skill; yet even greater was their thirst for more knowledge, and in many things they soon surpassed their teachers"; they even made Manwe's sceptre, and of their chief objects, the silmarils, it is said in Letter #131: "by the making of gems the sub-creative function of the Elves is chiefly symbolized". To conclude, I am pretty sure it was (primarily) the Noldor who Tolkien had in mind when talking about the elven Art.

So was Tolkien a conservative "luddite" (you remember this James Ludd, who went to destroy machines?), who just tried to say that machines are bad, or was his relation to technologies' more subtle?

Imo, letters #75 and #96, quoted above, pretty much points to the first option.

So should we be happy with the new things (peace, stability, welfare etc.) or sigh for the lost (action, heroism, virtues, honour etc.)?

Well, Estel, hope, would imply that of all His designs, the issue must be for his Children joy (cf Finrod's debate) - so I will go with the first option, again .

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I wonder what is natural indeed (in Ea); as far as I can see it, a place in which the essence of Melkor is spread throughout creation, accelerating all decay, phisical and not only, is not natural. The fact that she tries to stay that decay isn't in any less blamable that the efforts of the valar to undo the evils of Melkor. Is the world bulldozed in Valinor? I think not - and that it occurs only where the influence of the Marrer can reach.

Well, two wrongs don't make a right. She is still attempting to dominate the world (or at least her little part of it). It may not be 'blamable', but it is an atttempt at dominance over nature. Yes, she's playing her part in the battle against Sauron, but in the end she surrenders & accepts that she cannot do that without a moral risk. The only guarantee of victory is to take the Ring - which is the end of the particular road she had chosen. In the end I think she realises that what she did was wrong & repents of it.

To conclude, I am pretty sure it was (primarily) the Noldor who Tolkien had in mind when talking about the elven Art.

I think this would apply to the pre-Rebellion Noldor only

[Raynor]

She is still attempting to dominate the world (or at least her little part of it). It may not be 'blamable', but it is an atttempt at dominance over nature.

Yet domination is the realm of the Enemy, not of the elves; I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one .

The only guarantee of victory is to take the Ring

I doubt there is any power in Middle Earth who could wield the ring and achieve a _desireable_ victory - the only outcome is another Sauron.

I think this would apply to the pre-Rebellion Noldor only

It depends on which moment we decide the rebellion started; even if so, what Vanyar/Teleri object could match Celebrimbor's Ellesar(s)?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Yet domination is the realm of the Enemy, not of the elves; I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one

I wonder about Galadriel's words to Frodo, that what he saw in the Mirror 'is also in my mind'

I doubt there is any power in Middle Earth who could wield the ring and achieve a _desireable_ victory - the only outcome is another Sauron.

Yet she's clearly considered the possibility of taking it...

It depends on which moment we decide the rebellion started; even if so, what Vanyar/Teleri object could match Celebrimbor's Ellesar(s)?

We don't know what they got up to after the Noldor cleared off....

[Raynor]

I wonder about Galadriel's words to Frodo, that what he saw in the Mirror 'is also in my mind'

She was reffering to the Eye, which she most likely saw before in the mirror.

Yet she's clearly considered the possibility of taking it...

Yet how much of that consideration stemmed from herself, and how much was a mere influence of the ring (which apparently tempted even Gandalf)? The ring's influence is too general to describe her, Imo.

We don't know what they got up to after the Noldor cleared off....

A matter of personal opinion I guess .

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

She was reffering to the Eye, which she most likely saw before in the mirror.

But why is the Eye 'in her mind'? Tolkien did state that the Elves of Eregion had 'flirted with Sauron'.

Yet how much of that consideration stemmed from herself, and how much was a mere influence of the ring (which apparently tempted even Gandalf)? The ring's influence is too general to describe her, Imo.
A matter of personal opinion I guess .

She wanted victory over Sauron, yet even before that she desired control over nature. Probably both.