LotR1-FotR-Seq09

[Boromir88]

Again this is another sequence I have mixed feelings about.

The Council of Elrond I thought was well cut down by Jackson. I'm not saying all that back-story, the dwarves tale, Legolas' tale of Gollum, Gandalf catching everyone up on Saruman, wasn't important in the books, but in the movie what this Council was called for was to discuss what the heck was to do with the Ring. So, Jackson cuts right to chase and eliminates the backstory, and for the film, I see this as perfectly logical and actually a good thing to do. We saw what happened between Gandalf and Saruman already, and there's not point in going into the other back stories. So, for the actual information we are given, this part of the Council was done well.

Some other good points is the archetypes that are created here, the whole archetypal "journey to discovery" are established here early at the Council. We see that Dwarves and Elves aren't on the best terms, and Gimli's little squabble with Legolas. We see the confrontation between Boromir and Aragorn..."Gondor has no King. Gondor needs no King." And finally, Aragorn's reluctancy in claiming the throne of Gondor. As Legolas goes on about him being the heir, I took Aragorn's "Sit down" as in he's hesitating on his decision and as of right now does not want to be the King. As the Fellowship progresses this "journey to discovery" starts taking place, as all these fellows relationships and feelings begin to change.

I get mixed feelings because (especially in TTT EE) it just seems like Elrond sends out a mass middle-earth telegram to everyone saying "Hey the Ring's in Rivendell, come and join in the discussion." I don't like this representation of what the Council was, and what the Council should have been. I think it should have been dealt in the same fashion, all these races have met together by chance just when the Ring arrived to Rivendell. It just seems to me that Elrond sent out telegrams to everyone to come and talk about the Ring.

The other thing is it's just a minor little quibble, and really doesn't effect how good, or bad the movie is, but I would have appreciated this scene a lot better. Ok, we have all these random people here, that play no further part in the movie, we have no idea where in the heck they are from, we don't even know who they are. What's their purpose? Seat fillers? It doesn't make sense to me. Also, of ALL the dwarves that Jackson threw into the Council, not one of them was credited as Gloin. This is minor, and doesn't get me fuming, but as a book-reader, it would have really made me appreciate this scene a lot better, seeing that Gloin is put into the Council (as he should have been) and not a bunch of random dwarves.

Just some other notes. I couldn't have put it out better myself alatar, as far as the scene between Bilbo and Frodo. Ian Holm does this perfectly, the tone of his voice and the way he speaks is just perfect for this part "I...sho-uld very much like...to hold it again...(quieter) one last time." As far as I know there's no "lunge" or "achhh" by Bilbo in the books, I think Frodo just says he "sees something in Bilbo's face," however I thought this was a nice little thing to tweek. Perhaps Bilbo is like the Gollum of the rest of the movies? Even though if he's lost the ring (well in Bilbo's case he willingly gave it up) he still desires it and that desire for the Ring will never be over until the Ring is destroyed.

But why, as Strider is in self-imposed exile, there are no other Rangers as far as we know, and no one protects the Shire.

While we have no knowledge of this (as movie-goers), prior knowledge from reading the books, and the Dunedain protecting the Shire...I think in the movies we do catch a hint that Gondor isn't the only one holding off Mordor...when Boromir says "...kept the forces of Mordor at bay. By the blood of our people, our your lands kept safe." Aragorn kind of squirms in his chair and rolls his eyes. I took this as a hint that Gondor isn't the only one, but that was because I had former knowledge of the Dunedain before watching the movie, I don't know if non-book readers would have caught this hint.

I do agree in that Sean Bean's performance (as well as I think Ian Mckellan again) was great in this scene. Bean definitely delivers a powerful performance when he gets up and starts talking. I just love the way he delivers his lines, especially when we get to Lothlorien, but I'll save that for another discussion.

Anyway. I see no duplicity, no “I’ll hang around for my chance to grab the Ring.” This honorable man accepts his duty, live or die. To me Boromir is much more heroic than Aragorn here.

I thought that too, until I saw TTT EE. I think TTT EE did a lot of good for what TTT regular version...messed up...but when we get to TTT EE, I think the little "talk" between Boromir and his dad contradicts and ruins Boromir's purpose for joining the Fellowship.

Also, one last thing is we see the heroism of Frodo yet again, and this is maybe one of the last times we see it. (Excluding when he decides to leave at the end of the movie). FOTR I thought did a good job of portraying Frodo's strength and heroism, when we progress it just seems like he's weak, can't do anything for himself, and Sam does everything for him. But, everyone starts bickering, arguing, tensions and angry words are rising, over what to do with the Ring and Frodo steps up to take it upon himself..."I will take it." The first time he says it, he seems intimidated. It's quiet, he's the only Hobbit amongst all these bigger, stronger people, then his voice rises above all the rest, and he strongly says..."I will take it." I love the queiting down, and Frodo whispering..."though I do not know the way." And then we get the Fellowship made. Anyway, I like Elijah Wood's and Frodo's portrayal in this part. What I find funny is that when all the arguing is going on, Elrond is just sitting in his chair having another migraine attack. I just kind of chuckle, it's his own Council and he's lost total control of it.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Several brief comments

I liked the Council of Elrond overall, (especially the
MTV easter egg ) but it was irritating that
PJ and friends didn't put in the obvious (book)
quote by Elrond: "And I will put the nine walkers against
the nine riders." (exact quote may be off). He could even
have said "nazgul riders" (or horsemen) to make the
allusion obvious to nonbook viewers.

I believe Barliman says "He's one of them rangers",
indicating that even in PJ's movie there are rangers
ranging somewhere around Eriador.

And Sean Bean does make a sympathetic Boromir.
And exactly why is Leggy, and not Elrond,
correcting Boromir? (Oh, yeah, more screen time
for the blond elf).

It was an excellent touch putting in Gandalf giving
his Black Speech bit. As for Gloin, I just assumed he was
the dwarf next to Gimli. And let's be thankful
that Gimli wasn't tossed away from the Ring when he
tried to destroy it.

[mormegil]

The Council of Elrond was good at accomplishing its purpose, telling us what had to happen to the ring. It can be presumed that the others in attendance, knew of the ring and were brought up to speed prior to our arriving on this scene. If I remember correctly though the theatrical release made less sense. They didn't have Gandalf standing up speaking the black toungue and they cut out some of Boromir. So it seemed, if I remember, more like:

Elrond: Okay we have Isildur's bane
Boromir: Let's keep it and use it
Elrond/Gandalf/Aragorn: NO we can't
Gimli: Well I'll break it
Everybody: Who will take it and let's argue now.

Boromir was greatly added to in the EE and I greatly appreciate this. It helps to showcase Sean Bean and I apprecaite his acting in this scene. It's great to see the seed of lust and doubt already begin to sprout in his mind. After it was just spoken that we cannot use the ring and the issue should be final he again hits the point and doesn't give up on wanting it. We're already getting the idea that Boromir will fall in the end.

As for Aragorn renouncing his claim on the Kingdom, I ask again why? I just see no need for this departure from the book. It weakens Aragorn as a character and he seems overly riddles with holes of self-doubt. Now when he has to lead the company sans Gandalf I can see and agree with his self-doubt but at this stage and on this issue I disagree wholly. Aragorn always prepared for the day when he would take up the Kingship. I would rather see a confident, yet humble Aragorn which PJ and company did not portray well at all.

Ian Holmes gets an A+ for his acting here, especially after our little "Bilbo Monster" attempts to grab the ring and he feels so bad about what burden has been laid on Frodo. I feel his sincerity and sorrow for this. A rather well done role and perfectly casted, unlike Elrond who was cast horribly.

[Lathriel]

The moment Bilbo reaches for the ring certainly made me jump a couple of times.
I really like it when the red book of Westmarch is shown but then I love books in general.
I like the council the way it is, if it had been longer I think it would have weakened the movie. For me one of the strongest part is when the people begin to fight and it is reflected in the ring. Essentially this is what it is all about. All of them, even Sauron himself are tied to ring. Actually the Title of Lord of the Rings translated in Dutch is "In the Ban van de ring" which literally translated means "Under the influence of the ring" and I find this really fits the book since each character is affected by it.
At first I didn't like Merry and Pippin bursting into the council but I have gotten used to it and I just can't help smiling every time I hear Pippin say, "Where are we going?"
As for Elrond looking somewhat happier, its because he is thinking, "finally I got rid of this ring and I can go back to the west and leave those stupid humans behind."

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Wait, no! He's smiling because he's thinking, "You're going to get there to Mount Doom with him, Gandalf, and he's going to refuse to throw the Ring in. Then you'll sympathize with me."

Alatar, thanks for heading this up and starting these threads. I actually laughed out loud when I read your bits in this sequence and the previous one about Elrond and his story. I think it's good to start these threads with a light heart.

Boromir . . . what can I say? He's awesome. Of course, the knowledge from TTT EE that he's a secret agent sort of puts a damper on things, but he's still awesome. Sean Bean is spectacular in that role.

As an actor, Hugo Weaving is everything I've ever imagined Elrond to be. Obviously the script leaves a little to be desired. Physical appearance, voice, both awesome. Of course, I'm coming from the seemingly unique position of never having watched any of the Matrix movies, so I don't think "Agent Elrond" every time I see him.

I think the Council is good overall; it's cut down, but still gets the gist in there. PJ doesn't have an hour to spend educating moviegoers on the finer points of Ringlore, and he wouldn't even if he did. The most important thing about it is that Frodo's choice is left intact. This is one of the most powerful moments of the trilogy, even if Merry and Pippin do milk it for laughs.

Oh, and I love the brief look Legolas gives after Gimli says, "And my axe."

In Ian Holm's last real scene, he's awesome as usual. He totally captures the essence of Bilbo. Is it me, or is his rubber mask, and the shot of it, intentionally reminiscent of Gollum? It reminds me of the first Gollum scene from TTT, the shot where he puffs his cheeks while reaching for the Ring. Maybe someone could come up with a side-to-side comparison of those two shots?

[alatar]

More people see Boromir as a "secret agent" than did I, and I wonder if this is due to my having more sympathy and understanding for this 'flesh and bones' Boromir than the one portrayed in the books.

I realize that in TTT Boromir is given a mission by Denethor, but I don't see Denethor's influence at the Council (thought that maybe it's some of those other humans that are hanging around). Surely Boromir is tempted by the Ring - wasn't Gandalf? - but this is something inside of him, not from his father. We will see that later. I think that with all that Boromir has seen recently - elves, Narsil, the heir of Isildur - that he's a bit snow blind. He reached out and handled Narsil, and my feeling is that he just wanted to get the Ring's measure also. He joins the Council, not for the dark whispering or cold council of the Steward's, but because this is an honorable man who knows better than even Aragorn that there's a job to do.

Maybe I'm just naive, or compensating for years of "Boro-bashing."

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Yeah, you know, alatar, when I look back on it, I do sympathize with Boromir. Especially because the scene in TTT EE gives the distinct impression that he doesn't want the Ring, that his father's forcing him to go. I guess "secret agent" isn't the best phrase for it. You can't look into his face at the Council and say, "Yep, this guy's just trying to get the Ring so he can take it back to Daddy."

I'm not sure about him being more heroic than Aragorn at this point, though. I mean, it's not like Aragorn's some naive little boy who doesn't know what it's going to take to get to Mount Doom. The dude was walking in the shadows of Ephel Duath before Boromir was born. In fact, I would almost say that movie 'Gorn is nobler than book 'Gorn in this scene, because book 'Gorn is on his way to Minas Tirith, while as far as movie 'Gorn knows, he's going to Mount Doom.