Is Eru God?

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

And I think a great number of Jews would disagree about having to take both Testaments or nothing . . .

We aren't discussing Judeism, we're discusing Catholicism, and how well Tolkien's world meshes with it.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Even the online Catholic Encyclopedia says

Quote:

The account of the fall of our First Parents (Genesis 3) is couched in such terms that it is impossible to see in it anything more than the acknowledgment of the existence of a principle of evil who was jealous of the human race.

The only principle evil ever mentioned in Scripture is Satan, unless you know of another. And, as that is a Catholic Encyclopedia, and they hold all of scripture to be true, I doubt they would deny the relevance of latter passages declaring that Satan is indeed the serpent. If we look at it through the scope of Christianity, then when a piece of scripture was added means very little- it's the point being made that matters.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One can say that they had free will to accept this role or not, but by and large it would appear that they were merely instruments.

The free will of angels is a largely debated subject, and their role in Creation is unclear. One can point to passages that seem to discourage the idea:

19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven,
and his kingdom rules over all.
20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.
Psalm 103:19-21

16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
2 Samuel 24:16

9 I asked, "What are these, my lord?"
The angel who was talking with me answered, "I will show you what they are." 10 Then the man standing among the myrtle trees explained, "They are the ones the LORD has sent to go throughout the earth." 11 And they reported to the angel of the LORD, who was standing among the myrtle trees, "We have gone throughout the earth and found the whole world at rest and in peace."
Zechariah 1:9-11

However, one can also find passages that support the free will of angels:

17 'Can a mortal be more righteous than God?
Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
18 If God places no trust in his servants,
if he charges his angels with error,
19 how much more those who live in houses of clay,
whose foundations are in the dust,
who are crushed more readily than a moth!
Job 4:17-19
(God finds error with the angels- could they make a mistake if they had no free will?)

12 Then the angel of the LORD said, "LORD Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these seventy years?"
Zechariah 1:12
(The angel questions God- not possible with out free will)

12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
1 Peter 1:12
(Angels had thought they served themselves, and express desire- hardly characteristic of tools)

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Genesis 6:4
(The Nephilim are a type of angel, along with the Cherubim and Seraphim, and are capable of acting on their own and entering into marriages, and fathering children. This clearly demonstrates a free will.)

Also, the rebellion of Satan is documented in the Old Testament.

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [a]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
Isaiah 14:12-15

So, the angels may not be able to refuse the will of their Creator, not even Satan, but that doesn't mean they have no free will. Satan is a minion of God only in that God uses him to create greater works, as Eru used the discord of Melkor to create even more beautiful Music.

We must nnot forget that Eru imparted the melody to the Ainur, so even the seemingly creative powers of the Valar are not really theirs, as a priest has no power of their own, and angels have no power of their own. It is all allowed by Eru/God (respectively). Melkor tries to create outside of Eru's design, and he can't. He is reduced to distorting the already present beings, which were in Eru's Music. In the creation of the dwarves, a fully living being cannot be made, and it is Eru who must give life.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I think this means they would not be capable of Tolkien's "sub-creation." Would this be another instance where Tolkien's 'theology' in fact deviates from his Christian beliefs?

In Orthodox theology there is a term 'teogumen' (if I remember it correctly). It seems to me that Host of Angels (as Valar) who may have 'worked' in Creation (even if after it was accomplished), since we do not have direct indication that they did not take any part in 'working' in it, may be a 'teogumen' as well.

Originally Posted by alatar

Isn't time the unit of eternity?

e·ter·nal
adj.
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time.

And also

Originally Posted by alatar

Though this may seem trivial, if angels have such powers then what would stop Satan from mascarading as a prophet or messianic figure?

Nothing.

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 11:14

[HerenIstarion]

1. Eru

Letter269

I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalised Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief

Letter 211

Theologically (if the term is not too grandiose) I imagine the picture to be less dissonant from what some (including myself) believe to be the truth. But since I have deliberately written a tale, which is built on or out of certain "religious" ideas, but is not an allegory of them (or anything else) and does not mention them overtly, still less preach them, I will not now depart from that more, and venture on theological disquisition for which I am not fitted

Letter 153

Inside this mythical history Creation, the act of Will of Eru the One that gives Reality to conceptions, is distinguished from Making, which is permissive

Letter 181

They [Valar] shared in its 'making' - but only on the same terms as we make a work of art or story. The realization of it, the gift to it of a created reality of the same grade as their own, was the act of the One God"

"...they [Valar] are only created spirits - of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels - reverended, therefore, but not worshipful..."

Letter 212

The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One."

Letter 153

So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions".

Letter 181

The Eldar and the Numenoreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination

Atrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time you will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you'

Osanwe

No mind can, however, be closed against Eru, either against His inspection or against His message. The latter it may not heed, but it cannot say it did not receive it

Letter 156

"...one of those strange exceptions to all rules and ordinances which seem to crop up in the history of the Universe, and show the Finger of God, as the one wholly free Will and Agent. The story of Beren and Luthien is the one great exception, as it is the way by which 'Elvishness' becomes wound in as a thread in human history

Myths Transformed

It [Hope] cometh not only from the earning for the Will of Iluvatar the Begetter (which by itself may lead those within Time to no more than regret), but also from trust in Eru the Lord everlasting, that he is good, and that his works shall all end in good. This the Marrer hath denied, and in this denial is the root of evil, and its end is in despair

2. Melkor (Evil, Satan)

Myths Transformed

Melkor is the supreme spirit of Pride and Revolt, not just the chief Vala of the Earth, who has turned to evil

Silmarillion

"...(Manwe) was the chief instrument of the second theme that Iluvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor

(parallel - Micheal as chief opponent of Satan)

Myths Transformed

Morgoth had no 'plan': unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share, can be called a 'plan'

Myths Transformed

It does however seem best to view Melkor's corrupting power as always starting, at least, in the moral or theological level. Any creature that took him for Lord (and especially those who blasphemously called him Father or Creator) became soon corrupted in all parts of its being, the fea dragging down the hroa in its descent into Morgothism: hate and destruction

3. Evil as instrument of Good in the long run

Silmarillion

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined

4. Strife of Good vs Evil

Osanwe Kenta

How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom".

5. Humankind

AFaA

The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time you will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you'".

Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna

That shall also be true of the Children of Iluvatar; for they will eat and they will build. And though the things of thy realm have worth in themselves, and would have worth if no Children were to come, yet Eru will give them dominion, and they shall use all that they find in Arda: though not, by the purpose of Eru, without respect or without gratitude

Silmarillion, QS, Of the Beginning of Days

Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani!"

Myths Transformed

For which reason it is said that whereas there is now great evil in Arda and many things therein are at discord... nonetheless the foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making; and evil in Arda would fail and pass away if it were not renewed from without: that is: that comes from wills and being [sic] that are other than Arda itself

AFaA

'Matter' is not regarded as evil or opposed to 'Spirit'. Matter was wholly good in origin. It remained a 'creature of Eru' and still largely good, and indeed self-healing, when not interfered with: that is, when the latent evil intruded by Melkor was not deliberately roused and used by evil minds.

6. Freedom of Children of Eru

Silmarillion

For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free, wherein they saw the mind of Iluvatar reflected anew, and learned yet a little more of his wisdom, which otherwise had been hidden even from the Ainur"

7. Death

Letter 153

Since 'mortality' is thus represented as a special gift of God to the Second Race of the Children (the Eruhini, the Children of the One God) and not a punishment for a Fall, you may call that 'bad theology'. So it may be, in the primary world, but it is an imagination capable of elucidating truth, and a legitimate basis of legends".

Yet

Letter 212

In this mythical 'prehistory' immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was pan of the given nature of the Elves; beyond the End nothing was revealed. Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythically these tales are Elf-centred, not anthropo-centric, and Men only appear in them, at what must be a point long after their Coming. This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'. It should be regarded as an Elvish perception of what death - not being tied to the 'circles of the world' - should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a 'mortal' Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one. To attempt by device or 'magic' to recover longevity is thus a supreme folly and wickedness of 'mortals'. Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron - it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith

But still, from human perspective

AFaA

Not so" I say indeed,' answered Andreth. 'We may have been mortal when first we met the Elves far away, or maybe we were not: our lore does not say, or at least none that I have learned. But already we had our lore, and needed none from the Elves: we knew that in our beginning we had been born never to die. And by that, my lord, we meant: born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end.'

=====================

The selection of quotes I derive from dispute that ocurred some years back between people who would accuse Tolkien of being gnostic and those who defended Christianity of his writing. More quotes can be dug if need and will and time be, but these suffice for the purposes of comparison.

It seems to me (yet again) that it would be hard to find much deviation between Tolkien and Christian Theology. At the most - Valar, but than again, it is explicitly stated they are not 'creating' per se, but rather 'creating as form of art', 'sub-creating' (Hence 'working' of my previous posts). Besides, there is even a division between Ainur corresponding with division of Angelic Order - why not assume that Auinur that stayed back in Halls of Eru, correspond with first two choirs (Supernals, Celestials, Illuminations, Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones), since they are with God always, Valar correspond with Third Choir - Dominations - Virtues - Powers (mark words) and Maiar with Fourth Choir - Principalities - Archangels - Angels. (It is even easier when comparing with Orthodox teaching, where there are Three Choirs only, First choir being Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones). But I digress. What I was pointing at:

Therefore, I assume, Eru is God, seen through prism of sub-creative work. That Tolkien's 'sub-created' world should not concur with Bible word to word is obvious - would not it than be a parody rather than independent work of Art? But in principle, the one is image of Another.

[davem]

What I still see is a conflict in Tolkien between 'Imagination' & 'Orthodoxy', & that this 'conflict' is what produces his Art (the conflicting 'forces' of thesis & antithesis producing synthesis, if you like). Without that 'conflict' he would have produced nothing (or nothing worth having). The fact that he could not leave the Legendarium alone, & had constantly to return to it, to 'make it right', to 'find out what really happened' speaks to this inner conflict as plainly as can be.

[davem]

This is a radio interview with Tolkien (hope the link works) where he discusses some of the religious aspects of LotR.

http://www.daisy.freeserve.co.uk/jrrt_int.htm

[Bêthberry]

Wonderful link, davem! I suppose for this thread the relevant bits involve his comment on The One, but these were the comments I found the most interesting:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

G: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this world we live in but at a different era.

T: No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes.

. . .

G: This seems to be one of the great strengths of the book, this enormous conglomeration of names - one doesn't get lost, at least after the second reading.

T: I'm very glad you told me that because I took a great deal of trouble. Also it gives me great pleasure, a good name. I always in writing start with a name. Give me a name and it produces a story, not the other way about normally.

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks, Heren Istarion, for the light to go with all the heat.

There is a quality of power, a rooted reality, a dynamic of the spirit in LotR that I find nowhere else, not in any other myth, except for the Bible. The two sharing a common root of reality. This demonstrates to me that they are harmonious at the deepest levels.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

So, the angels may not be able to refuse the will of their Creator, not even Satan, but that doesn't mean they have no free will. Satan is a minion of God only in that God uses him to create greater works, as Eru used the discord of Melkor to create even more beautiful Music.

We must nnot forget that Eru imparted the melody to the Ainur, so even the seemingly creative powers of the Valar are not really theirs, as a priest has no power of their own, and angels have no power of their own. It is all allowed by Eru/God (respectively). Melkor tries to create outside of Eru's design, and he can't. He is reduced to distorting the already present beings, which were in Eru's Music. In the creation of the dwarves, a fully living being cannot be made, and it is Eru who must give life.

Nice work collating all of the text. I would read it otherwise. Tolkien's angels, the Ainur, do not breed with men, nor do the 'lesser set,' the Maia. This group was able to breed with elves, though kin, are not men. And even that was a rare event, as were the elf/human and half-elf/half-maia/human marriages. However, it did take place.

I do not see any credible interpretation of any passage of the Christian Bible where angelic beings crossbreed with humans. The Nephilim citation is the most oft presented, but there is much evidence that angel/human mixing is an incorrect reading of the passage.

Noncorporal beings do not breed with corporal beings in either world. Elves, therefore, must be somewhere in between corporal and spirit.

The Ainur and Maia appear to humans seemingly without prior consulting with the One. There are even examples where not all of the Ainur are on the same page (Ulmo talking to Tuor). Angels, however, are on a short leash and do the exact bidding of the Lord. Text that sounds like the angels disagreeing with God etc is just the way the writer anthropomorphizes the event, makes the story more readable and/or attempts to express the point that 'even the Angels did such and such' to demonstrate something of God (His mercy, restraint, etc).

And consider, exactly who documents conversations between angels and the Christian God?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by alatar

I do not see any credible interpretation of any passage of the Christian Bible where angelic beings crossbreed with humans. The Nephilim citation is the most oft presented, but there is much evidence that angel/human mixing is an incorrect reading of the passage.

However, Tolkien provided the answer by writing that the Valar who chose to enter Arda clothed themselves in forms befitting the Children of Ilúvatar. I think Tolkien got it right. The term "Nephilim" means 'Children of the Giants'. If you look elsewhere in the historic books of the OT, you discover many references to giants, such as the 'sons of Rafa'; Goliath; and many people living in Palestine (sorry for that anachronism but people understand that term better than Canaan) when the people of Israel spent 40 years tramping through the desert. So the angelic crossbreeding with humans is not so farfetched, and may in fact be closer to the truth (... and may explain to a large extent why Yahweh wanted Israel to kill off the people who lived there; that is, they were set in their ways evildoers who had placed themselves beyond redemption. But anyway....).

I think the angels had, and have, free will. Those who did not fall away earlier have no blinders on and can see the whole picture quite clearly, and know it would be abominably stupid to rebel against God.

The Ainur and Maia appear to humans seemingly without prior consulting with the One. There are even examples where not all of the Ainur are on the same page (Ulmo talking to Tuor). Angels, however, are on a short leash and do the exact bidding of the Lord. Text that sounds like the angels disagreeing with God etc is just the way the writer anthropomorphizes the event, makes the story more readable and/or attempts to express the point that 'even the Angels did such and such' to demonstrate something of God (His mercy, restraint, etc).

I find it interesting that Tolkien "cleaned up" some of these less savory (to moderns) aspects of the OT story.

And consider, exactly who documents conversations between angels and the Christian God?

Well, God. But now you're getting into the nature of divine revelation. Suffice it to say that God revealed to the prophets what He wanted them to write down.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

However, Tolkien provided the answer by writing that the Valar who chose to enter Arda clothed themselves in forms befitting the Children of Ilúvatar. I think Tolkien got it right. The term "Nephilim" means 'Children of the Giants'. If you look elsewhere in the historic books of the OT, you discover many references to giants, such as the 'sons of Rafa'; Goliath; and many people living in Palestine (sorry for that anachronism but people understand that term better than Canaan) when the people of Israel spent 40 years tramping through the desert. So the angelic crossbreeding with humans is not so farfetched, and may in fact be closer to the truth (... and may explain to a large extent why Yahweh wanted Israel to kill off the people who lived there; that is, they were set in their ways evildoers who had placed themselves beyond redemption. But anyway....).

I will continue to respectfully disagree.

• At a time when the average height may have been five feet (1.5 meter), seven feet (2.1), which we see even today, may have seemed to be gigantic. When I meet 'Merican football and basketball players, I feel dwarfed though I am over 2 meters in height. Anyway, I would have to see the bones to believe that actual giants existed. My point is that 'giants' can exist without the intervention of angels.

• Exactly how do angels mate with humans? As stated previously, one has physicality whereas the other does not. To tread more lightly, biologically speaking, do angels therefore have DNA? Or is some other mechanism available? Surely God is not limited by anything, by definition, but I would assume that either angels can natively mate with humans or can only do so at the behest of and with the aid of God. Again, if they can whenever they can, what stops the evil set from doing so? Can we detect those people who carry this bloodline? And, hopefully with much respect, why then is the birth of the Christ so special? My assumption is that taking a physical body is a rare event in Christian theology, as is angels mating with humans.

• Do we know if angels can 'cloak themselves in flesh?' I remember that there was an angel that wrestles with a human, and so I guess that it is possible, but yet again, why then is the Christ's physical resurrection so different? He asks his disciples to touch him, and He eats fish, all (I assume) to demonstrate evidence that He is not some wispy spirit but a physical object. There are examples where fallen angels inhabit a human, possessing the person as it where, but one of the same examples show the same demons asking permission to take up residence in a pig, which to me means that even the evil sort were not permitted to whatever they chose.

Again, I am no theologian and I do not intend any disrespect.

Anyway, I see no reason nor mechanism by which angels mate with humans. Tolkien explains how it works in ME, as stated, by having elves be the intermediary and, as you have stated, showing that these nonphysical beings take a physical form of their choosing in order to interact with the physical environment and beings therein. But does Tolkien have the equivalent, as you posit for the Christian world, spawn of the evil ones running around at any time? Melkor perverts the elves to beget orcs, yet I don't remember reading where Melkor or any on his side (like Sauron) mate with elves, men, dwarves etc.

Well, God. But now you're getting into the nature of divine revelation. Suffice it to say that God revealed to the prophets what He wanted them to write down.

Understood. My point is that these 'conversations' may not be what they appear, and that God is making some point by showing a 'discussion' is taking place. At times they are utilized as a literary device to have (I assume) a 'question and answer' theme, if that makes sense. And surely an omniscient omnipresent etc God has no 'need' for angels.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by alatar

At a time when the average height may have been five feet (1.5 meter), seven feet (2.1), which we see even today, may have seemed to be gigantic. When I meet 'Merican football and basketball players, I feel dwarfed though I am over 2 meters in height. Anyway, I would have to see the bones to believe that actual giants existed. My point is that 'giants' can exist without the intervention of angels.

Fair enough, and had we no record of Goliath's height, I'd have to conceed. But we do know it.

1 Samuel 17:4 (New International Version)
4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. He was over nine feet* tall.
*Hebrew was six cubits and a span (about 3 meters)

For comparison purposes.

Tallest Man
The tallest man in medical history for whom there is irrefutable evidence is Robert Pershing Wadlow. He was born at Alton, Illinois, USA, on February 22, 1918, and when he was last measured on June 27, 1940, was found to be 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in) tall.

For us, a man near 9 ft is an amazing oddity. Goliath was over 9 ft, and he came from a whole tribe of people like that. Something was clearly different.

Originally Posted by alatar

Do we know if angels can 'cloak themselves in flesh?' I remember that there was an angel that wrestles with a human, and so I guess that it is possible…
Anyway, I see no reason nor mechanism by which angels mate with humans.

Again, this is recorded in scripture.

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Genesis 19:1-5

The angels deviated from their original plan, ate, washed their feet (a Hebrew tradition), and were capable of being raped by the locals. If they could be raped, it stands to reason they could also have sex willingly, and therefore reproduce.

Originally Posted by alatar

Understood. My point is that these 'conversations' may not be what they appear, and that God is making some point by showing a 'discussion' is taking place. At times they are utilized as a literary device to have (I assume) a 'question and answer' theme, if that makes sense.

While I do not deign to argue divine revalation, I will point out the Tolkien, as a Catholic, would have accepted these passages as wholly true and literal.

Originally Posted by alatar

And surely an omniscient omnipresent etc God has no 'need' for angels.

Fair enough, but He would have no need for humans either. As to why both were created, I have no idea. Why should Eru bother creating anything at all? Why create the Music? Why should God create humans who would only turn away from Him time and again? That's deep theology, and not a question anyone could really answer here with out getting waaaaaay off topic.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Fair enough, and had we no record of Goliath's height, I'd have to conceed. But we do know it. For comparison purposes. For us, a man near 9 ft is an amazing oddity. Goliath was over 9 ft, and he came from a whole tribe of people like that. Something was clearly different.

Understood, but as I question a person's ability to reliably judge height (especially at a distance), the lack of a universal standard of measure (unlike the meter, a 'span' could in theory vary), some skepticism as to when Goliath was measured (before he was killed, he was an enemy; when killed by David, there is the possibility that Goliath's height was inflated), and the lack of any evidence of this large race ever existing (though with the finding of 'hobbit' bones, I'm willing to concede that we just haven't uncovered anything yet), I will have to stand by my original argument. Even if we had a race of humans that averaged over 3 meters, this characteristic does not verify spiritual DNA. Occam's razor would suggest that if we were to encounter such a race that we might posit that they are "sons of angels" without evidence if we believed in such things.

It'd be better than just admitting that they are tall and we short.

The angels deviated from their original plan, ate, washed their feet (a Hebrew tradition), and were capable of being raped by the locals. If they could be raped, it stands to reason they could also have sex willingly, and therefore reproduce.

Disagree. The actions of the mob do not impart sexuality to the angels. For example, I may see a movie with an attractive woman. I may say that I would really like to kiss her. This does not give this electronic image flesh and blood lips.

While I do not deign to argue divine revalation, I will point out the Tolkien, as a Catholic, would have accepted these passages as wholly true and literal.

Many people accept their scriptures as "wholly true and literal," yet vary greatly on exactly what that means. Isn't this the reason that religions have many sub-divisions? And some people, even those skilled, do not always interpret a particular passage correctly.

Fair enough, but He would have no need for humans either. As to why both were created, I have no idea. Why should Eru bother creating anything at all? Why create the Music? Why should God create humans who would only turn away from Him time and again? That's deep theology, and not a question anyone could really answer here with out getting waaaaaay off topic.

Agreed. But my point was that in Arda, Manwe is King. He runs the place, with some help. So if we assume that there's a reason for Arda in the first place (unknown to us), then maybe we can say that Manwe and his tribe were created as caretakers so that Eru could get in some golfing . In the Christian world, to me it seems that angels aren't exactly needed.

[Legolas]

Angels have carried out actions just as the Valar did. Neither are absolutely necessary. Both still exist in their respective texts, and carry out actions in the name of God. I think I've missed where this tangent started...what point are you trying to make?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

He would have no need for humans either. As to why both were created, I have no idea. Why should Eru bother creating anything at all? Why create the Music? Why should God create humans who would only turn away from Him time and again? That's deep theology, and not a question anyone could really answer here with out getting waaaaaay off topic.

Actually, I must strongly disagree with this one particularity, although, Roa Aoife, you and I line up pretty much on everything else. There is a reason trumpeted loudly throughout the Bible why God created it all. He wanted creatures to love and to be loved by. Everything, absolutely everything originates and hinges on this most central aspect of who God is, according to the Hebrew and Christian traditions. This is NOT way off topic because precisely the same motivation is to found in Eru. Why else does anyone create anything? For the sheer love (and joy) of seeing the thing do what it was meant to do, which in the case of God/Eru, was delight in all that is/was/shall be.

Originally Posted by alatar

But my point was that in Arda, Manwe is King.

I think it would be more appropriate to say that Manwe is Viceroy in Arda, and Elbereth/Varda Viceroyess (if there's such a word).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

He wanted creatures to love and to be loved by. Everything, absolutely everything originates and hinges on this most central aspect of who God is, according to the Hebrew and Christian traditions. This is NOT way off topic because precisely the same motivation is to found in Eru. Why else does anyone create anything? For the sheer love (and joy) of seeing the thing do what it was meant to do, which in the case of God/Eru, was delight in all that is/was/shall be.

Not sure if this places me in the skeptic, cynic or 'just to be a pest' group, but why does an omniscient being have need or a want of anything? It's like God is 100% and yet isn't complete or needs something else.

I think it would be more appropriate to say that Manwe is Viceroy in Arda, and Elbereth/Varda Viceroyess (if there's such a word).

Maybe someone can help me out here with some back up text, but I thought that Manwë was Eru's CEO.

Originally Posted by Legolas

I think I've missed where this tangent started...what point are you trying to make?

Point!?! As can be seen in my SbS posts, any point that I happen to make can be attributed to random chance...

Anyway, this tangent (or at least the one in my mind) started when I pondered foreknowledge in Arda and in the Christian world. After that, we looked at angels/ainur, and then other minutia.

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There is a reason trumpeted loudly throughout the Bible why God created it all. He wanted creatures to love and to be loved by. Everything, absolutely everything originates and hinges on this most central aspect of who God is, according to the Hebrew and Christian traditions. This is NOT way off topic because precisely the same motivation is to found in Eru. Why else does anyone create anything? For the sheer love (and joy) of seeing the thing do what it was meant to do, which in the case of God/Eru, was delight in all that is/was/shall be..

My own understanding (& I think this comes through perhaps more strongly in the Legendarium than in the Bible) is that God creates because it is in His nature to create. God is a creator, that is His essence: He creates because creating is what He does.

Of course, He may have other aspects which we don't know of (can't ?? know of) but in terms of His relationship to us (as creatures) He is primarily our Creator, & its difficult to know/experience Him as anything else.

That said, He is also a destroyer of what He creates (in certain circumstances).

So, God (& Eru) creates not so much out of a desire for something to love (which implies a deficit or lack in God) but because He (being a Creator) can do no other - its kind of spontaneous with Him. Hence we're not told anything about Him pre-Creation.

Which is not to say that He doesn't do other stuff as well - its just that the only aspect of Him that we can know, the only 'relationship' we can have with Him is the Creator/Created one.