Do you think Tolkien would be insulted by the LOTR movies?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by davem

The sons of Elrond were there in the battle (as well as Legolas, of course )

I guess that could somewhat, somehow, perhaps, maybe, kinda, sort of..... explain the elves in Helms Deep?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Farael

I guess that could somewhat, somehow, perhaps, maybe, kinda, sort of..... explain the elves in Helms Deep?

I've read the same point made about Elrond sending his sons to the aid of Aragorn in the book & his sending of Elves to aid the Rohirrim in the movie to show that the Elves haven't entirely given up on Men (& by extension on Middle-earth itself). I think the idea that the Elves are completely detatched & unconcerned with the fate of Middle-earth, & are leaving it to Men to deal with Sauron in practical ways - I've said similar things myself in the past. I think its probably a bit more complicated than that.

The Elves play the part they are capable of playing. I just think they have become so detatched over time (apart from the 'Great' like Galadriel & Elrond) that when push comes to shove they aren't all that capable of doing much beyond 'self-defence' (which is what I think we see behind their defence of Lorien & Galadriel's overthrow of Dol Guldur). Certainly the movie Elves are a more dynamic & active force than the Elves of the book, yet I accept their 'detatchment' & struggle to engage with a world that is changing beyond their capacity to deal with it does come across at Helm's Deep, where, let's face it, they prove almost incompetent. Their arrival may be impressive but once the battle starts they do little other than die tragically.

The more I think about it the more 'successful' I feel Jackson is in communicating the final days of the Elves in Middle-earth through episodes like Helm's Deep. Of course, Legolas' superhero antics overshadow that conception somewhat, but the idea of the Elves as not just tragic figures, but also as a spent force, wanting to recapture old glories but incapable of doing so - in fact capable only of leaving Middle-earth (by dying there or by taking ship into the West) does come across.

(Can somebody help me revive SaucepanMan - I think he's fainted? )

[Lalwendë]

If Jackson was successful in that then it's possibly a kind of 'happy accident'. Why? Because Arwen was originally scheduled to turn up and fight at Helm's Deep, and in fact these scenes were filmed but then edited out (you can see a few glimpses of Liv Tyler in some scenes though you'd possibly have to watch the film frame by frame with a microscope ). The contingent of fighting Elves would have come along with her, and there would be no reason to cut out scenes of audience-friendly Elves.

By the way, I think he was successful in getting this point across anyway...

[narfforc]

Tolkien could never come to terms with the enormous thing he had created, and the commercial aspect of the films resulting in doubling book sales, would have gone over his head I think. He would have been happy generally, somethings may have upset him, missing out bits you can understand, but inventing bits of your own, well who knows what he would have said. Maybe he would have felt like many of us, however I would like to think for the good reasons. Think of how many people have gone on to read the written word of Tolkien, and remember why this gift was given in the first place, and why he spent a lifetime to give us it.

[davem]

Its well known that Tolkien was uncomfortable with dramatisations of fantasy/fairy stories generally - see his comments in OFS for example. I suspect that he would have felt that out of all the various movies Jackson's version was the best overall adaptation. Having said that, we know that this adaptation (the only one we can presume he would have seen) did meet with authorial approval for the performances (Bogart's Frodo is in many ways superior to Wood's) if not for the modern day setting. Chandler's script does of course omit many of the subtleties of the novel, but Hawks' direction manages to communicate the deeper themes well.