What if?? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Farael · 12-08-2005, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerindel

And as for Morgoth not being able to create Dragons I'm not entirely convinced If we can dismiss this possibility? For if Aule could make the dwarves and Yavanna the ents, then is it not then pausible that Morgoth could have created the dragons?

Actually, Aule made the dwarves but they did not have a conscience of themselves until Eru himself gave them one. Before that they were just outgrowths of the conscience of Aule. The Ents were trees (created by Yvanna) given a soul by.... I can't remember right now but I would guess Eru again?... so neither of the Valar created life by themselves. And of course, it is quite unlikely that Eru would have helped Morgoth create the Dragons.

Nerindel · 12-08-2005, 08:23 AM

Hmm off course, good point Farael. So that leads me back to the thought that Morgoth possibly could have twisted and corrupted the dragon's already given life by Eru, like Lalwendë Suggested.

Quote:

It could be that the dragons were corrupted by Morgoth, as their origins are unknown beyond that they emerged from Angband. They could have been extant creatures, corrupted to his needs, but we do know that Morgoth 'bred' dragons. Smaug is said to have been the greatest of his kind so he could have been one of those bred by Morgoth or a descendant of them.

bilbo_baggins · 12-08-2005, 08:28 AM

Well who's to say that Eru picking sides? I'm not claiming to be rooting for Melkor or anything, but if Eru gave life to Aule's creation and Yavanna's creation, why not give life to Melkor's creation? The Dwarves you will remember, play an enormous, fate-of-the-world changing role in Middle-Earth. So why can the Valar have all the abilities to affect all life? I think Melkor created Dragons from scratch, and that somehow he gave them life.

Farael · 12-08-2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

Well who's to say that Eru picking sides? I'm not claiming to be rooting for Melkor or anything, but if Eru gave life to Aule's creation and Yavanna's creation, why not give life to Melkor's creation? The Dwarves you will remember, play an enormous, fate-of-the-world changing role in Middle-Earth. So why can the Valar have all the abilities to affect all life? I think Melkor created Dragons from scratch, and that somehow he gave them life.

I beg to differ, as it is said more than once in The Silmarillion that Morgoth could not create, only corrupt what had been created already, but I do respect your view points... after all, we are all entitled to our own ideas

bilbo_baggins · 12-08-2005, 08:59 AM

Then if Dragons were created from extant creatures, were they not possibly corrupted (if they could be corrupted) from the deep crawling things beneath the earth mentioned by Gandalf? In that case, Sauron would have no control over Dragons, because he had no control over the creatures of the earth. He might have allied with Smaug, but the dragon would eventually get the better of him.

mormegil · 12-08-2005, 09:03 AM

We're missing the most important question here.

Let's assume that Smaug had ring-lust and the desire for the power. How on Middle-earth could he use the ring? I don't think it would fit.

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-08-2005, 11:55 AM

With regard to the origins of Dragons, you might find some useful thoughts here:

The source of dragons

12-08-2005, 08:28 AM	#3
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	Well who's to say that Eru picking sides? I'm not claiming to be rooting for Melkor or anything, but if Eru gave life to Aule's creation and Yavanna's creation, why not give life to Melkor's creation? The Dwarves you will remember, play an enormous, fate-of-the-world changing role in Middle-Earth. So why can the Valar have all the abilities to affect all life? I think Melkor created Dragons from scratch, and that somehow he gave them life. __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

12-08-2005, 08:59 AM	#5
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	Then if Dragons were created from extant creatures, were they not possibly corrupted (if they could be corrupted) from the deep crawling things beneath the earth mentioned by Gandalf? In that case, Sauron would have no control over Dragons, because he had no control over the creatures of the earth. He might have allied with Smaug, but the dragon would eventually get the better of him. __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

12-08-2005, 09:03 AM	#6
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	We're missing the most important question here. Let's assume that Smaug had ring-lust and the desire for the power. How on Middle-earth could he use the ring? I don't think it would fit. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

12-08-2005, 11:55 AM	#7
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	With regard to the origins of Dragons, you might find some useful thoughts here: The source of dragons __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

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