Who delivered the final blow?

[The 1,000 Reader]

I just think Sauron was already dead. I mean, if he was shot in the head through and through by an archer, he wouldn't be walking around fighting. Besides, if Sauron wasn't already dead, why would Isildur use the hilt-shard of Narsil? There is no mention of his own blade breaking, and if it did, surely he would have used his own sword. If Sauron was still alive, wouldn't it make sence for him(Isildur) to stab Sauron and kill him first? This is just my reasoning.

[Eonwe]

I agree (probably, i haven't read all the posts :sheepish: ) with most in that there is really no way to tell. first you have to define what actually 'the final blow' looks like. what does 'throwing Sauron down' mean? then you must wade through the Morass of Contradiction, and deside which book you like better.

all in all, i think there is no way to tell. but i will stick with my original image of isildur. so many original images (ei, legolas ) have been wrecked by teh movies, i don't want to lose another one.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I just think Sauron was already dead. I mean, if he was shot in the head through and through by an archer, he wouldn't be walking around fighting.

Can't really recall that ever happening... did I miss something or was that just an example?

Besides, if Sauron wasn't already dead, why would Isildur use the hilt-shard of Narsil? There is no mention of his own blade breaking, and if it did, surely he would have used his own sword. If Sauron was still alive, wouldn't it make sence for him(Isildur) to stab Sauron and kill him first? This is just my reasoning.

You forget that Swords themselves could be more or less powerful, not only their wielder. Narsil was a great sword and perhaps Isidur used Narsil (even if broken) because he believed it would help him better than his own sword. Besides, as I have already argued three times, he did not need to be dead to be incapacitated!! Perhaps he was knocked out, all woozy and dizzy which allowed Isidur to chop his finger off but he could have had recovered. What finished him off (i.e. Final blow) was the chopping of his ring finger.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What if Sauron accidentally dropped the Ring—would that have killed him? Busting out the reductio ad absurdum...

Take this quote from Johnny T. himself.

"Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron." (from a letter)

Admittedly, this does not necessarily entail, but it certainly does imply that Gilgalad and Elendil slew Sauron. The way it's worded does suggest this.

The final blow I take to mean that blow which finally broke Sauron's body.

Oh, and by the way: I'm just guessing that the Kings stabbed Sauron all over his body. It's true that there is no explicit textual evidence to support that but I liked the phrase so that's why I typed it.

[Lindolirian]

For the argument that Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand after he had been vanquished, I found a quote of Elrond's (an eye-witness, you know... very useful)

Isildur took it... But few marked what Isildur did.

I have a feeling that in a campaign to destroy the Enemy of all the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, the completion of such a huge undertaking would be pretty well marked by more than a few. My point is that in taking the Ring, Isildur did not do anything spectacular, but was being discrete after the battle was already won and snatched it from a dead hand.
Now to decide between Elendil and Gil-Galad is a tougher choice. Al I can come up with is that Tolkien keeps mentioning Elendil last... of course that really could mean nothing at all, but in the event of a toss-up, I'll let it decide for me.

[Farael]

I must say I am proud of always being the first one to admit I'm wrong when proven wrong... problem is, it usually takes A LOT to have me accept that it has been proven that I was mistaken

Anyway, I was re-reading Lord of The Rings and I got to the part in which they are in Rivendel and Elrond tells the story of how Isidur got The Ring. And the way he tells it, it does have me thinking that he took it from the dead or disabled body of Sauron. I should also take a look at The Silmarillion yet I'm not in the mood for re-reading it at the moment.

But yes, I must say that it seems that I was mistaken and Sauron was already down when Isidur took the ring.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, it's by no means definite Farael but we certainly had some good debate.

On a related point, I think I once voted quickly on one of these polls and then changed my mind; of course, you cannot then change your vote.

Polls, eh...

[Formendacil]

This being a Fordhim-posted poll, I think myself fully justified in answering as pedantically as the question allows.

The final blow sustained by Sauron was clearly that of Isildur. Although I would not call it the killing blow, for Sauron was already incapacitated (in my opinion) and not dead (and would not be for 3000 years), it was the final blow to be struck directly against his body.

While the the attack by Gil-galad and Elendil can be more directly said to have caused his incapacitation, and while it was Gollum's misstep that actually killed him, the final blow landed on Sauron's body, the last physical hit, came from the hilt-shard of Narsil, wielded by Isildur.

(Note: My vote shows my real answer to the spirit, if not the letter, of the questions.)

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Farael

Can't really recall that ever happening... did I miss something or was that just an example?



You forget that Swords themselves could be more or less powerful, not only their wielder. Narsil was a great sword and perhaps Isidur used Narsil (even if broken) because he believed it would help him better than his own sword. Besides, as I have already argued three times, he did not need to be dead to be incapacitated!! Perhaps he was knocked out, all woozy and dizzy which allowed Isidur to chop his finger off but he could have had recovered. What finished him off (i.e. Final blow) was the chopping of his ring finger.

That was just an example.

About swords holding power, I doubt Isildur's blade was a shoddy piece of steel. Also, from what I have read, Narsil was extremely well crafted and wasn't forged with any magical spells or objects. Besides, at that point he(Isildur) wouldn't care about dropping his sword or picking up his father's blade, he would just be angry that his father died and he would stab the weakened Sauron repeatedly until he(Sauron) was dead, possibly continuing even after Sauron had died. Looking on Isildur's ego and temper, the only reason he would pick up the hilt-shard of Narsil and cut off Sauron's finger was if Sauron was dead.

Hey, if a dog's teeth can subdue Sauron, surely a sword held by a prince can do the same, if not more.

Also, to everyone who says that Sauron wasn't dead until the ring was destroyed, that statement is composed of ********. If someone loses their body due to, say, multiple stab wounds, they die. If someone loses their body due to old age, they die. Sauron had a body(two in fact) and lost them, so he died. Notice that when he was a spirit he couldn't do anything whatsoever. That doesn't sound like an ainur in pure form to me. This is just my reasoning and I apologize if it offends you.