Tolkien and Norse Mythology

i know that norse mythology comes from vikings and sweden ppl. i did a assignment at school on it and it was quite intresting. i know about a god called odin and he is like the wizard gandelve.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I appologies for my long absence from this thread, as it is clear you all relie on me to get it going.

In this post I will say a few words of the Giants (Jætter) of Norse Mythology.
The name giants is not a verry fitting name for these creatures, but since the word Jætte does not exist in the English language, we have to use the name giant.

The giants was super natural beings of course in giant shapes (hence the name giants). They have existet since the worlds creation and therefor is as old (and maybe as mighty) as the gods. They lived in a place called Jotunheim (giant-home) wich was described as cold, dark, full of mountains and kaotic. Allthough the giants is a force of kaos, they are not all evil and enemies of the gods. (wich are not allways good)

Of good giants I can mention: Mimer one of the wisest beings in the Mythology, It was him who guarded the well of wisdom from wich Odin drank, later after his dead Odin brings him back to life and he becomes his advisor.(well actually he only brought Mimers head back to life)

Most giants is however in someway evil, the ones that seems most as anything from the world of Tolkien is the fire giants. Not much is nown about them save that they live in a world of fire called Muspelheim. They are lead by Surt the ruler of fire and wacher of the world of fire. At ragnarok he will lead the Fire giants against the gods, they will burn all of the earth and Surt him self will kill the unarmed Frej with his shiny sword wich light is brighter than the sun. When the fire giants tries to cross the rainbow bridge Bifrost that is the only way to the land of the gods. The bridge will however crumble under there feet. (Fire beast walks over bridge, bridge crumbles. Does it sound like anything you have ever read?)

My intention has been to show that allthough the classical giant is evil, they as a race are very diverce kind of like the maiar. They are just as old as the gods and can be both good and evil.

I know that all of this might be a little far fetched, but I do belive that Surt and his fire giants has inspiret Tolkien to his Balrogs.

Let me know what you think I Surt the father of Gothmog ?

I somehow agree with Rune upon the matter of the Fire-giants and the Balrogs. The actions of the former during the Ragnarök when marching upon Bifröst and it breaks and falls simply remind me of the events in Moria, on the Bridge of Khazad-Dûm.
Adding another point to the matter of the relationship between the two entities: the first stronghold of Melkor, Utumno, resembles the realm of the Fire-giants, Muspellheim. With all its forges, subterranean fires and chambers of poisonous vapours, Utumno (along with Angband) manifests as the mythological and the philological counterpart of Muspellheim, which is 'Land of Flame' (not unlike a chasm of molten iron and eternal streams of flame), hence Utumno and Angband being 'Great Deep' and 'Hells of Iron'.

Moreover, there seem to be no restrictions to Surt being the inspiration for (I believe) both Melkor and Gothmog. As stated in The First Book of Lost Tales, Gothmog the Lord of the Balrogs, was originally described by Tolkien as being the son of Melkor. So the Valaraukar were intended to be the progeny of the Dark Lord. Furthermore, there is no denying that the Fire-giants may at the least bear the blood of Surt. And as Surt rules over Muspellheim, Melkor rules over his strongholds.
In Dagor Bragollach, the intensity of 'Fire' as a dominant element in the characteristics of Melkor is present, along with some points on the similarity between the Dark Lord and the Muspell-lord. The scorching of Ard-galen by the flame rivers may reflect the deeds of Surt as he sets the worlds, and Yggdrasil ablaze. Though the World Tree never succumbs to the Fire-giant's menacing actions (unlike Ard-galen), it is 'burning' nonetheless. And last but not least, the Dark Lord's colossal figure when confronting Fingolfin the High King at the twilight of the battle resembles Surt's being as a Giant - a Giant of Sable Fire.

I may have missed many more counterparts, but I will leave the matter for someone else to state them.

[littlemanpoet]

White Tree for the Tree of Tales

Is the Heimskringla part of this discussion?

I once read an English translation of the Younger (Prose) and Elder (Poetic) Edda. Quite fun! But there was one poem in the Elder Edda that cast its spell on me; it's the only way I can describe it. It's sort of vague right now, and some time I'll have to go back and find it: it was about lovers, one of whom has died and is buried; the ghost of the one visits the still living one, and they remain lovers in spirit. Sort of reminds me of Tristan and Isolde, and of Beren and Luthien. I need to find it again!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Since the Edda is one of the main sources to Norse Mythology, it would be odd if we limitid this discoution to very few parts of it.

I am quite confident that people them self can feel when they have moved away frome the topic, If not I will hunt them down.

Please do return with this tale of "Beren and Luthien". I am looking foreward to it.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Is Carcharoth Tolkien's Fenris ?

Both of them was The greatest Wolf ever to exist. . . Carcharoth was fed by Morgoths own hand and even gives him some of his own power!
Fenris is the Spawn of Loke/Loki (wich has been mentioned earlier on this thread) and he is raised amongst the gods.

So they both has powers within them genrated from the gods and are both raised by them. (I am considering Morgoth a god)

Then Carcharoth bites of the hand of Beren and Fenris bites of the hand of Tyr. Now Beren is no god, but "only" a man with a extrodinary destiny. I still see some of Tyr reflected in Beren. Tyr was the bravest amongst gods and the only one who dared put his hand in the wolves mouth. Beren I think, posseses the same kind of currage. First he lives as a refugie in Dorthornien with his father and his men, later by him self. He defies all the evils that Morgoth sends after him, even Sauron. Then to come to Doriath he has to go by paths that not even the elven kindred dare set feet on. If this has not convinsed one of how brave he is, surely his jurney to Morgoths throne in Angband must do it.

Tyr puts his hand in the mouth of Fenris. Beren puts his hand, holding a silmaril right in front of Carcharoth.

Carcharoth bites of his hand, still holding the silmaril. If my memorie does not decive me, it is Fenris destiny to swallow the sun! and again I seem to remember that it will burn him quite batly inside. Is it not the same thing that happens to Carcharoth? I think so.

There is a few points that seperates the two, but it has never been Tolkiens style to copy complete tales to his books.

So do you agree with me, that Carcharoth is Tolkiens Fenris?

I am sorry if this has been debated before, but I did not have time to make search.

[Lalaith]

LMP, I think this is the poem you mean:
http://www.cybersamurai.net/Mytholog...ingsbanaII.htm

Thanks for reminding me of it, I'd forgotten how beautiful the story was...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think that sometimes it detracts from the subtlety of Tolkien's use of the old myths to make direct x=y comparisons between them. Clearly there is a correlation between Fenris and Carcharoth, but I don't think it's one of equivalence. For example, Tyr is only required to put his hand into the wolf's mouth to prove the non-existent good faith of the Æsir. Without that guarantee the wolf will never allow himself to be bound with the great chain Gelgja, which is clearly parallelled by Angainor elsewhere in the Silmarillion. The loss of Beren's hand, by virtue of the Silmaril it holds, doesn't so much bind the wolf as loose it on a destructive rampage. Fenris is, according to Gylfaginning, fated to die at Ragnarok, when his jaws will be wrenched apart by Víðarr. Interestingly, the same source records that Tyr is destined to be killed by the great dog Garmr, and not by Fenris, who will have his jaws full swallowing Oðinn. In other words, Fenrisúlfr is killed in a battle by a character other than he whose hand he took; Carcharoth is killed by Beren during a hunt, although there is a possibility that this is taken from the fight between Tyr and Garmr. The use of the lost hand motif in the story of Maedhros seems to me to suggest that it had a particular hold on Tolkien's imagination, regardless of the particular myth in which he found it. A particularly amusing parallel, which Tolkien may have included on purpose because of the irony, is that the Silmarils contain the light that was before the sun, whereas Fenris is destined to swallow the sun itself. It could well be that he wondered how an animal might feel were it to consume a star, and developed his myth accordingly.

The significance of the whole story has, of course, changed entirely. Carcharoth lacks Fenris' important and apocalyptic role in the Norse myths, being rather one of a series of characters encountered by Beren and Lúthien in their own central and significant quest. For me this is typical of Tolkien's mythologising technique. We can trace this compression and recontextualising in the tragedy of Túrin and Glaurung, which borrows elements from at least two separate legends. The story of Turambar and Glaurung was inspired at least in part by Sigurð's slaying of Fafnir in Volsunga Saga and that of Túrin and Nienor echoes a theme from the story of Kullervo in the Kalevala, but his story takes elements of these and applies them to a new narrative context, using them as building blocks for new legends and tales. One could develop literature as diverse as Beowulf and Hrolfs Saga Kraka from these plot elements (as, in fact, two medieval writers did from the legends of the Scyldings/Skjoldungs), but Tolkien goes further in that he builds them into entirely new stories, related to the originals only by a complicated reverse engineering that suggested to him legends that might have developed into those which history has recorded. Such is the case with Ælfwine, who in HoME V extemporises a poem very closely related to the text of the Anglo-Saxon elegy The Seafarer, but which provides a potential 'pure' form of that somewhat corrupt poem. Since this theme was never fully expressed or realised, it's difficult to see how far Tolkien would have taken it in a published Silmarillion, or even whether he would have made it explicit at all. It may even have been a passing phase, eventually forgotten as the philosophy of his own myths became his primary preoccupation.

Essentially, then, Tolkien's use of Germanic mythology is more one of inspiration. A name, an event, a plot device would grasp his attention and then be worked into his insatiably acquisitive legendarium. Doubtless Fenrisúlfr has been included, as have the Old English word Earendel, Sigurð/Siegfried, the mysterious Sheaf and Alexander's Letter to Aristotle (in which is contained a description of the trees of sun and moon, the parallels of which need no elaboration). How far Tolkien intended to make his characters the imaginary prototypes for known mythological beings is still not completely clear to me. In places the process seems almost unconscious, in others it is developed to such a sophisticated degree that it must have been carefully thought out. Even so, I don't think that we can call the Carcharoth of the Silmarillion 'Tolkien's Fenris' solely on narrative grounds, since he plays a far less apocalyptic role, not to mention not actually being the son of Morgoth. Rather he is a character inspired by and similar to Fenris, yet with a significantly different part to play. Of course the similarities and direct borrowings are many and varied, but Tolkien reached a highly developed version of Beren's story very early in the history of his mythology, before he really achieved his full stature as a writer; I suspect that he would have handled the real-world mythological elements with more subtlety in his later years, and I would have liked to see a Silmarillion complete with Ælfwine as a real-world arbiter.