What's the Worst Thing Characters had to Face in Middle Earth?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

DO you think she perhaps felt that her fate would mirror Luthien's in that regard also? One of the reasons I don't find Arwen interesting is that she is not so much a character as a cipher....

Arwen must have been as aware as anyone of Luthien's story and fate, so it may well have served as a lesson for her in not simply haring off to be with Aragorn; in many ways Luthien may have served as an example to all who followed her. But I do not think Arwen consciously chose to follow Luthien in falling for a Man, again because she would have been aware of the suffering in the relationship of Beren and Luthien. I think she clearly simply fell for Aragorn and could not help herself, but maybe chose to restrain herself from being impulsive.

This lack of impulsiveness is a character trait for Arwen, and I often think that the reason she may seem to pale in comparison to an active, passionate woman such as Eowyn is that Arwen was simply a much quieter person. I think Esty once posted about the possible significance in Arwen's weaving of the banner for Aragorn, and it is in acts like this that Arwen shines. She may be quiet and only seen in the story as Aragorn's 'love interest' but she also seems to be powerful in that she can imspire Aragorn to such great deeds. We can't forget too that at the end of the book she gives Frodo a significant gift, however we want to interpret that act.

Originally Posted by Farael

Lalwendë brings up a great point regarding the "inevitability of death" and I can't really add anything to what (are you a he or a she?) said, yet I just wanted to mention I agree with you.

Well, davem hopes I am a woman anyway.

[Lush]

I always found Denethor's situation particularly chilling.

The book hints at the notion that he was originally faced with the death of his wife and was not able to overcome it, leading to his despair to snowball into the disaster that eventually found him looking into the palantir, slowly deteriorating, losing Boromir after sending him on the road to ostensibly rescue Gondor, and ending up about to burn his remaining family member to death.

I think there is some sort of connection there; the idea, perhaps, that if one is not able to deal with losing a loved one, one may eventually lose everything and everyone they've ever loved as the resullt. It is a very cruel irony that Denethor who, after Findulias' death, "became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, forseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time" would end up trying to torch Faramir, who was all that remained of his family.

[Farael]

You are fairly right, Lush... but Denethor does not inspire much simpathy as his actions stand for everything I oppose. Although you are right, he is faced with a really painful sequence of losses, to the point of loosing himself on his grief.
I also think that by trying to burn Faramir, in a very odd way (after all, he had lost his mind) he wanted to avoid his loss rather than loose him for good. By killing him, he owns his destiny and in such way, he owns Faramir himself.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Lush

The book hints at the notion that he was originally faced with the death of his wife and was not able to overcome it, leading to his despair to snowball into the disaster that eventually found him looking into the palantir, slowly deteriorating, losing Boromir after sending him on the road to ostensibly rescue Gondor, and ending up about to burn his remaining family member to death.

I can see this in Denethor too. Interestingly it only becomes clear that he was once a great man and had already been hit hard by grief when we get to the Appendices and read about his background there; in the story we meet him when he is grieving for Boromir and this is when he is at his lowest point.

I like the way that Tolkien leaves it open to us to decide how much his mind has been affected either by grief or by using the Palantir. I find that as I have got older, I have grown to understand Denethor much better and rather than seeing him as simply a 'bad guy' for his madness, I understand how he came to that point, burdened by grief that he could not reconcile, and along the way hurting not just his younger son but his people.

[Boromir88]

I like the way that Tolkien leaves it open to us to decide how much his mind has been affected either by grief or by using the Palantir. I find that as I have got older, I have grown to understand Denethor much better and rather than seeing him as simply a 'bad guy' for his madness, I understand how he came to that point, burdened by grief that he could not reconcile, and along the way hurting not just his younger son but his people.~Lalwende

I understand what you're saying, however I think it's got a lot to do with what Lush is saying and having to overcome that. Theoden is in the same situation as Denethor is, yet Theoden is able to overcome his grief.

Theoden lost his wife. Lost his only son. His kingdom is on the verge of destruction. Then after he's victorious he learns he has to hastily ride to Gondor's call.

Though I may sympathize for Denethor (because I certainly don't think he's the bad guy he's made out to be and is one of the most misunderstood characters in Tolkien), it comes down to he was corrupted, he wasn't through and through a "nice" guy. Tolkien didn't have a nice picture in mind for Denethor, noting that he became corrupted by politics and in many cases compared him to Saruman. That may be because of all this thrust upon him. However, Theoden is faced with the exact same dilemmas and was able to triumph.

So, while Denethor is faced with a lot of grief, he was unable to overcome it like Theoden was able to.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Tolkien didn't have a nice picture in mind for Denethor, noting that he became corrupted by politics and in many cases compared him to Saruman. That may be because of all this thrust upon him. However, Theoden is faced with the exact same dilemmas and was able to triumph.

Tolkien does however leave us with enough information to figure out that Denethor is not an evil Man, just one who chooses the wrong way of dealing with his problems; in the appendices he make a point of telling us about the early death of his wife and from that we can draw our own conclusions.

Comparing Denethor to Theoden is a good comparison to make. The different reactions of each to grief and to a threatened realm demonstrate how people can react in very different ways in similar situations and it does make a point that perhaps the stronger person tackles their grief rather than retreating into it. It might be useful to compare two Ringbearers - Sam and Frodo; the former (although not long a Ringbearer) manages to integrate the experience while the latter simply cannot cope. Bilbo was also a Ringbearer and like Sam he too is much more able to cope than Frodo.

I'm not sure that Tolkien is telling us that it is absolutely wrong to react in a certain way to a situation, more that he shows us what causes people to react in certain ways, and then the consequences of their reactions. We can then make our own minds up, and the characters become more tragic for not simply being there to represent a moral lesson.

[Farael]

Ringbearers - Sam and Frodo; the former (although not long a Ringbearer) manages to integrate the experience while the latter simply cannot cope. Bilbo was also a Ringbearer and like Sam he too is much more able to cope than Frodo.

But then, you have to take into account the purpose for which they carried the Ring. Bilbo carried it for a long time for no special purpose besides avoiding uncomfortable situations by disapearing and Sam used the ring only to save Frodo, his Master. In both cases the ring is helping them succeed and that's what the ring itself wants. On the other hand, Frodo is set to destroy the ring and of course, the Ring will do whatever it can to oppose it. You should not forget that the Ring has a sort of conscience of its own and in more than one instance we see it making choices, as (for example) slipping of the finger of Isidur when he tries to swim away from the Orcs, or becoming heavier and heavier as Frodo approaches Mt. Doom. I believe that it's because of the Ring that Frodo finds it hard to cope with the experience of being a Ringbearer. After all, the ring helps Bilbo and Sam yet it only opposes Frodo.