What's the Worst Thing Characters had to Face in Middle Earth?

[Farael]

Well, I'm afraid I must disagree with Kuruharan. I think he still had hope, but of the 'subconscious' type. What I mean by that is that his senses told him "it's all over" yet his heart knew that he had to go on. Of course it takes a HUGE will to follow your heart when your brain says you've lost already, but I think Frodo never lost hope. If he had, he would have hidden the ring and run away, yet he kept on going, in spite of the pain, thirst and hunger (oh yeah, and in spite of all those lovely fellows known as "orcs")

Regarding Davem's comments, I don't know if Frodo was aware of a higher being than himself, yet he was definetly aware of a sense of destiny. I don't know who Frodo believed had set his destiny but I'm as certain as one can be with an interpretation of a story (which is not really very certain) that Frodo felt it was his destiny to go on with the Quest to destroy the ring. I can't remember the exact quote, but I do remember Frodo saying in a couple of instances that the Ring was his burden to carry (and he did not only say it out of the selfishness the ring itself imposed on the ring bearers, I think he really meant what he said)
Still, I do agree that if he went on with that destiny it was because he wanted to help others and not himself. As I said before, he did not think he would survive, he was making that sacrifice for everyone else and THAT (to me) is the worst thing Frodo had to face.

On a bit of a sidenote, I love this kind of discussions! =)

Farael

[davem]

Originally Posted by Farael

Well, I'm afraid I must disagree with Kuruharan. I think he still had hope, but of the 'subconscious' type. What I mean by that is that his senses told him "it's all over" yet his heart knew that he had to go on.

Possibly he did. One thing I recall from HoM-e is a passage from an early draft of 'Many Partings'. At the funeral feast for Theoden Gandalf declares:

and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire & Samwise his servant. And the Bards & the Minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthan Uluithiad, Endurance beyond Hope & Hope unquenchable.'

'Endurance beyond Hope' is, I think, pretty apposite for Frodo, as is 'Hope unquenchable' for Sam. In short, I think Kuruharan is correct about Frodo - but, as I say, that's something that must remain a matter of opinion....

[Lalwendë]

I think most of the characters had to face terrors, whether psychological or physical - it is a book about "the inevitability of death". Just one of the worst dilemmas/upsets faced was that faced by Elrond, Arwen and Aragorn. This is no simple love story, Tolkien shows just how difficult this was for all concerned. At the heart of the story of this trio of characters is the fact that if Arwen stays in Middle-earth she will become mortal, and that has greater consequences than the fact that she will one day die, it also means that this is a permanent sundering of her relationship with her father without any hope of being reunited after death.

Whichever decision Arwen makes, she is doomed to be permanently parted from either her father or her betrothed. Elrond knows that if his daughter marries Aragorn her happiness will only be bittersweet, and Aragorn knows that his love for Arwen is likely to take her away from her father and her family for good. I can imagine that Elrond more than kicked himself when his daughter met Aragorn! And the possibility of such situations is probably one of the many reasons why Elves do not mix with Men.

One interesting thing about the relationship is that Elrond does not want the pair to marry until Aragorn has regained his Kingship; for Elrond this would mean not only that the kingdom of Gondor be a safer place for his daughter to live, but the whole of Middle-earth would be safer too, as he must have known that with Sauron still in existence, it would have been nigh on impossible for Aragorn to reunify the kingdoms to any degree. Aragorn and Arwen seem to take Elrond's decision stoically. Arwen does not simply run off with Aragorn. This suggests that either she is trusting to 'fate' to make the decision to remain in Middle-earth or not, or that she has incredible faith and trust in Aragorn that he will achieve what has been set out for him. For Aragorn the impact this must have on him is to put tremendous pressure on him to succeed, yet he must have always borne in mind that if he did succeed, he would also bring great grief for Arwen.

[Farael]

Well Davem, it most definetly is a matter of opinion... and also of the definition of 'hope' each of us believes in. To me, one cannot go on without any kind of hope. It does not have to be a logical hope, but deep inside, you have to believe. Yet it's a matter of perception, others will call this "Endurance beyond hope" and others will say it's sheer insanity.

Lalwendë brings up a great point regarding the "inevitability of death" and I can't really add anything to what (are you a he or a she?) said, yet I just wanted to mention I agree with you.

[Mithalwen]

DO you think she perhaps felt that her fate would mirror Luthien's in that regard also? One of the reasons I don't find Arwen interesting is that she is not so much a character as a cipher....

An interesting character for this topic to my mind is Gimli. Remember how hard he found leaving Lorien? Maybe this is a good excuse to quote just about my favourite passage in the whole shebang

'The travellers now turned their faces to the journey; the sun was before them, and their eyes were dazzled, for all were filled with tears. Gimli wept openly.

"I have looked the last upon that which was fairest," he said to Legolas his companion. "Henceforward I will call nothing fair, unless it be her gift." He put his hand to his breast.

"Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did I know where the chief peril lay! Truly Elrond spoke, saying that we could not foresee what we might meet upon our road. Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord. Alas for Gimli son of Gloin!"

"Nay!" said Legolas. "Alas for us all! And for all that walk the world in these after-days. For such is the way of it: to find and lose, as it seems to those whose boat is on the running stream. But I count you blessed, Gimli son of Gloin: for your loss you suffer of your own free will, and you might have chosen otherwise. But you have not forsaken your companions, and the least reward that you shall have is that the memory of Lothlorien shall remain ever clear and unstained in your heart, and shall neither fade nor grow stale."

"Maybe," said Gimli; "and I thank you for your words. True words doubtless; yet all such comfort is cold. Memory is not what the heart desires. That is only a mirror, be it clear as Kheled-zaram. Or so says the heart of Gimli the Dwarf. Elves may see things otherwise. Indeed I have heard that for them memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream. Not so for Dwarves." '


I find this intensely moving, the stern dwarf - a being of stone almost literally, who has seen the ancient glory of Moria is more deeply affected by the alien elvish world of Lorien. The only other thing he finds so moving are the glittering caves - perhaps the ideal mix (for him) of light and stone.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

DO you think she perhaps felt that her fate would mirror Luthien's in that regard also? One of the reasons I don't find Arwen interesting is that she is not so much a character as a cipher....

Arwen must have been as aware as anyone of Luthien's story and fate, so it may well have served as a lesson for her in not simply haring off to be with Aragorn; in many ways Luthien may have served as an example to all who followed her. But I do not think Arwen consciously chose to follow Luthien in falling for a Man, again because she would have been aware of the suffering in the relationship of Beren and Luthien. I think she clearly simply fell for Aragorn and could not help herself, but maybe chose to restrain herself from being impulsive.

This lack of impulsiveness is a character trait for Arwen, and I often think that the reason she may seem to pale in comparison to an active, passionate woman such as Eowyn is that Arwen was simply a much quieter person. I think Esty once posted about the possible significance in Arwen's weaving of the banner for Aragorn, and it is in acts like this that Arwen shines. She may be quiet and only seen in the story as Aragorn's 'love interest' but she also seems to be powerful in that she can imspire Aragorn to such great deeds. We can't forget too that at the end of the book she gives Frodo a significant gift, however we want to interpret that act.

Originally Posted by Farael

Lalwendë brings up a great point regarding the "inevitability of death" and I can't really add anything to what (are you a he or a she?) said, yet I just wanted to mention I agree with you.

Well, davem hopes I am a woman anyway.

[Lush]

I always found Denethor's situation particularly chilling.

The book hints at the notion that he was originally faced with the death of his wife and was not able to overcome it, leading to his despair to snowball into the disaster that eventually found him looking into the palantir, slowly deteriorating, losing Boromir after sending him on the road to ostensibly rescue Gondor, and ending up about to burn his remaining family member to death.

I think there is some sort of connection there; the idea, perhaps, that if one is not able to deal with losing a loved one, one may eventually lose everything and everyone they've ever loved as the resullt. It is a very cruel irony that Denethor who, after Findulias' death, "became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, forseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time" would end up trying to torch Faramir, who was all that remained of his family.

[Farael]

You are fairly right, Lush... but Denethor does not inspire much simpathy as his actions stand for everything I oppose. Although you are right, he is faced with a really painful sequence of losses, to the point of loosing himself on his grief.
I also think that by trying to burn Faramir, in a very odd way (after all, he had lost his mind) he wanted to avoid his loss rather than loose him for good. By killing him, he owns his destiny and in such way, he owns Faramir himself.