LotR1-FotR-Seq06

[alatar]

Interesting that Saruman's moment of quiet pondering is seen as "a moment of doubt," as I didn't see it that way. I saw a wizard plumbing the depths of his knowledge and craft to create the vile Uruks. In the books it's more 'crossbreeding and selection;' here I'm not sure how Saruman begets the Uruks (Plants Uruk seeds in mud?). What does he use as his source material, as I would assume that not even movie-Saruman can create, but only pervert.

[The Saucepan Man]

Cloning?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Cloning?

As this comment is in regards to a PJ production, I assume that you left out the 'w.'

[Lathriel]

Indeed, a short sequence. But I do like the way Christopher Lee has his hand spraed out over the Palantir. It really has this evil look to it.
I actually didn't catch the "Build me an army..." line either. It took me another two times before I understood what this big eyeball said. (Did anybody see the eyeball with a mouth, cause I didn't)
Although pulling the trees down might not have been realistic I still liked the dramatic affect. It did make me feel sad because I always do when I see old trees pulled down for development of roads or houses.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

In the books it's more 'crossbreeding and selection;' here I'm not sure how Saruman begets the Uruks (Plants Uruk seeds in mud?). What does he use as his source material, as I would assume that not even movie-Saruman can create, but only pervert.

It's the same in the movies - here 's what movie gandalf says to Elrond

By foul craft Saruman has crossed Orcs with Goblin-men. He's breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard.

And why do we get het up on the mechanics of how something happened 'magically' when the most 'magic' thing that happens is a Ring that makes its wearer INVISIBLE. I can't remember anyone ever mentioning the impossibility of that? (mainly because it's Tolkien's idea!) - Jackson has to put across cinematically what Tolkien can mention. I think he does a very good job at it.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

It's the same in the movies... And why do we get het up on the mechanics of how something happened 'magically' when the most 'magic' thing that happens is a Ring that makes its wearer INVISIBLE. I can't remember anyone ever mentioning the impossibility of that? (mainly because it's Tolkien's idea!) - Jackson has to put across cinematically what Tolkien can mention. I think he does a very good job at it.

Note that I'm not up nights pondering PJ's mudspawn - I'm up due to my own spawn...

But the question remains: why did PJ choose to show the Uruks as being born from some mud pit, whereas in the books it's much different. Weren't the pillars and chains that surrounded Orthanc used to 'train' and/or select orcs for resistance to sunlight? If not, then they are unusual lawn ornaments. But maybe I misread that.

And I completely understand why PJ sidesteps the other issue regarding where we get orc/human hybrids, as that's a topic not fit for a PG-13 movie, and maybe not even here.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

But the question remains: why did PJ choose to show the Uruks as being born from some mud pit, whereas in the books it's much different.

I think it's the case that Tolkien does not show HOW they are 'born'. So it is not 'different' - just showing something that Tolkien glosses over?

or does he mention somewhere that I've forgotten?

All I can find is: (from The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves)

Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mokery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes

and Treebeard

"For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

and Hamling

'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun'

now where Tolkien show how they are 'created' - he mentions words like Multiply and Spawn in the Fellowship - but (to me at least) he does not state how they are born, other than they came from Elves as my first quote above.

[Kath]

I don't really see that it's greatly important to know how the Uruk-hai were created because the idea is that they are bigger, stronger, superior to normal orcs and the first scene we get of one where it strangles the orc that got it out of it's mud-sack thing shows that well. Also, with no real explanation in the book (that i can recall) PJ had nothing to go off.

Also, it can be better not to see it sometimes. That which you don't see can often be scarier than that which you do.

As to Gandalf's magical appearance on the top of Orthanc, if Saruman is able to make him fly up vertically there isn't too much of a mystery as to how he got there!

The palantir though, I love the palantir. It looks exactly right and those clawed fingers of Saruman's curling around it - just looks wonderfully evil. The words though, I always had a weird sort of thought that Sauron spoke to a person looking into the palantir via some kind of telepathic connection.

Anyway, mostly I just liked the sequence. The destruction of the beautiful landscape of Isengard really was awful (in a good way) and made you see the horror industrialising can bring.

[mormegil]

The Uruk-hai discussion is interesting but really we are skipping ahead a bit. As we actually don't see the Uruks during this sequence.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What bothered me from the very first viewing was the contradiction between the orc's statement that the trees are strong, their roots go deep - and we see trees being pulled out of the earth, with very shallow roots! That did take me out of the story.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kath

As to Gandalf's magical appearance on the top of Orthanc, if Saruman is able to make him fly up vertically there isn't too much of a mystery as to how he got there!

Not exactly sure what you mean. Do you mean that Saruman flew Gandalf up the center of the tower and out a window, then to the 'pinnacle,' or do you mean that Gandalf was magically teleported through the rock to the top? Either way, we have a Saruman at least able to move man-sized objects some distance without touching them. Was this only due to his possession of Gandalf's staff? Note that this ability would be helpful if he were attacked by, say, large tree-like things...

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

What bothered me from the very first viewing was the contradiction between the orc's statement that the trees are strong, their roots go deep - and we see trees being pulled out of the earth, with very shallow roots!

Ahh! There it is; that's why it bothered me though I didn't see it until your post. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Essex

I think it's the case that Tolkien does not show HOW they are 'born'. So it is not 'different' - just showing something that Tolkien glosses over?

Essex, I'm with you on all of that. Just asking why PJ chose the mode that he did. What message/idea was he trying to convey? I could see him showing Saruman 'working in the lab' and then showing some orcs outside, chained in the sunlight. I think that it's called a montage, but maybe that would take too much time. Any thoughts?