Is Eru God?

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by davem

Fine - but why should Frodo have to suffer & lose his life because of Eru's choice to permit freewill - wouldn't the more 'moral' action on Eru's part have been to suffer himself, rather than choose Frodo to go through it?

If suffering is the only consideration, then maybe. But if development of the soul, and growth of the spirit is the goal, then suffering is part of the process. We dodge suffering, as humans, and we hate it, but it creates something that rose petals and an easy life cannot.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

We dodge suffering, as humans, and we hate it, but it creates something that rose petals and an easy life cannot.

But why should some have to suffer, or suffer more, than others? Because they are more in need of spiritual development? Why was Frodo chosen for the Quest and not Merry or Pippin, or Rosie Cotton? Why should children have to suffer before they have had a chance to grow physically and mentally, let alone spritually?

I don't buy it. And that's why Eru, for me, is not God.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But why should some have to suffer, or suffer more, than others? Because they are more in need of spiritual development? Why was Frodo chosen for the Quest and not Merry or Pippin, or Rosie Cotton? Why should children have to suffer before they have had a chance to grow physically and mentally, let alone spritually? I don't buy it. And that's why Eru, for me, is not God.

That would take us quite far off topic, I think, so I'll keep it ultra-brief. Too brief.

One: Suffering can be a free-will offering, as Sharon has described. That's one reason for it.

Two: The other 'reason' for suffering is somebody else's sin-- for instance, Hitler's sin caused a lot of suffering. Likewise, Sauron's sin caused a lot of suffering. Hence the commands not to sin.

At which point the question arises, why did God allow Hitler to do what he did, and why did Eru allow Sauron to do what he did?? Bottom line: free will is truly free. Man is free to be a monster if he so chooses, and monsters cause suffering. If we go against Eru the music is nasty. He works it all towards a good end, but it's nasty nonetheless.

I think no matter how many times we go around on this, Sharon's and my opinions will differ significantly from yours, Saucie.....

Cheers.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

One: Suffering can be a free-will offering, as Sharon has described. That's one reason for it.

Two: The other 'reason' for suffering is somebody else's sin-- for instance, Hitler's sin caused a lot of suffering. Likewise, Sauron's sin caused a lot of suffering. Hence the commands not to sin.

Thought that this was interesting.

And it's obviously personal bias, but I find Eru a bit less harsh than the Christian God (not offense meant). That may be due to the actually BC interventions, or the language that is used in the Old Testament regarding the plans and thoughts of Jehovah. Eru doesn't intervene directly, and most of the work is done by the Ainur, and so I guess that he's a bit more palatable.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by SpM

I accept that Eru is Tolkien's God. I also accept from what you say that he is your God. But, to me, Eru is not God.

This about sums it up for me. And I won't be changing my vote because the poll asked if Eru was THE God, not Tolkien's God.

I envy those who can accept one view of God and stick with it, as I cannot. I see too many Gods and their most devout followers are not all bad people, so either they are all wrong or all right. I do tend to veer towards they are all right (hence my interest in Unitarianism) and I would defend to the last anyone's right to religious freedom.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If that makes you believe that Eru is not God, then clearly God as defined by most Christians (and Jews) is not someone that you believe in.

I'd question 'most Christians'. I was brought up Anglican and Tolkien's God was not the God I learned about (though I knew of this God through my grandmother's fire and brimstone beliefs). My God was inherently good. Natural disasters were just that, and as Christians our role was to help out as much as possible (usually through the jumble sale ); likewise evil was nothing to do with 'original sin' it was the fault of misguided people. The role of God was to guide us, not to punish us; more a case of do good things to make God happy rather than avoid bad things because you'll get punished.

A final thought, somewhat random...Free will. Where do the Elves fit into all of this? They are denied the most basic free will of all, to die.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'd question 'most Christians'. I was brought up Anglican and Tolkien's God was not the God I learned about (though I knew of this God through my grandmother's fire and brimstone beliefs). My God was inherently good. Natural disasters were just that, and as Christians our role was to help out as much as possible (usually through the jumble sale ); likewise evil was nothing to do with 'original sin' it was the fault of misguided people. The role of God was to guide us, not to punish us; more a case of do good things to make God happy rather than avoid bad things because you'll get punished.

Perhaps I should restate it in a different manner...

If that makes you believe that Eru is not God, then clearly certain aspects of God as defined by most Christian (and Jewish) dogma is not something that you believe in.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I do tend to veer towards they are all right (hence my interest in Unitarianism) and I would defend to the last anyone's right to religious freedom.

I'm wondering if you've ever read Left Behind, Lal?

Formendacil, what I find interesting is that I think you and I have about the same view of God (Christian) but voted differently. I'll say again that I think of Eru like I think of God, but that is not the question. And the fact that there is any difference at all makes them not the same. Yet I can definitely see why you picked what you did.

So, answering littlemanpoet's question: I would still vote the same. My views may have changed some, but not my answer.

And now I've got a question of my own. If you believe that Eru and God are the same, do you believe that Tolkien meant to leave out the coming of Men to Middle-Earth so that we could 'insert' Eden into the story? Meaning we would put the Creation of Man in the Garden of Eden into the part of the Silmarillion where Men first appear in the East.

[davem]

On the 'inscrutability' of Tolkien's God:

That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, & its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. (Letter to Rhona Beare, 14th October 1958)

So, Tolkien's God apparently 'tolerates' evil (its also interesting that in discussing the Fall of Numenor Tolkien refers to 'our' world). In another letter, to Father Robert Murray (4th November 1954) he refers to Sauron's deception of Ar-Pharazon as a 'Satanic' lie (ie, he seems to conflate Sauron & Satan).

What I find interesting is Tolkien's statement that God's toleration of evil is a 'permanent' problem. Clearly, whatever his Church's teaching on the nature of evil & free will, Tolkien couldn't understand it, & certainly had no easy answers to offer. Sauron couldn't be destroyed by Eru in his Secondary World, for the same reason that God hasn't destroyed Satan in this world - Tolkien simply didn't know what that reason was.

This 'permanent problem' suggests uncertainty, even doubt, in Tolkien's mind regarding God's purposes. In Middle-earth he explores these doubts & uncertainties but never, it seems to me, comes to a conclusion.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

And now I've got a question of my own. If you believe that Eru and God are the same, do you believe that Tolkien meant to leave out the coming of Men to Middle-Earth so that we could 'insert' Eden into the story? Meaning we would put the Creation of Man in the Garden of Eden into the part of the Silmarillion where Men first appear in the East.

Actually, no. I think Tolkien left it out because he didn't want to directly include any of the Hebrew myth in his myth. It's interesting, no, telling, to me, that Tolkien did not include a Creation of Man story in his myth. I wonder if he felt he could not improve, or was it that he feared to write something other than what he believed to be true? *LMP shrugs at his new can of worms...*

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But why should some have to suffer, or suffer more, than others? Because they are more in need of spiritual development? Why was Frodo chosen for the Quest and not Merry or Pippin, or Rosie Cotton? Why should children have to suffer before they have had a chance to grow physically and mentally, let alone spritually?

I don't buy it. And that's why Eru, for me, is not God.

If that makes you believe that Eru is not God, then clearly God as defined by most Christians (and Jews) is not someone that you believe in.

As noted by Mark/Helen, the very things here that seem so incomprehensible in an Eru based on a God of Christian morals are the very same things that occur in our own world that cause so many people to wonder at the existence of God.

So, whether or not you do in fact believe in a real God, this ought to be another proof that Eru is God.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

The other 'reason' for suffering is somebody else's sin-- for instance, Hitler's sin caused a lot of suffering. Likewise, Sauron's sin caused a lot of suffering. Hence the commands not to sin.

... and "Acts of God"?

But you are right. This takes us off topic (albeit by an interesting route). My point was merely to illustrate the point that Formendacil has picked up on.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If that makes you believe that Eru is not God, then clearly God as defined by most Christians (and Jews) is not someone that you believe in.

Bingo!

Originally Posted by Formendacil

So, whether or not you do in fact believe in a real God, this ought to be another proof that Eru is God.

No. That does not follow. I accept that Eru is Tolkien's God. I also accept from what you say that he is your God. But, to me, Eru is not God.

[littlemanpoet]

Would you change your vote, having read the discussion to this point?

Yes _______

No_______

If yes, What changed your mind?

[Roa_Aoife]

I would still be voting yes, LMP.

But I'd like to point out that we seem to be discussing our individual veiws of God, rather than Tolkien's veiw of Eru. Or does that just go back to the "C" thread....

[Kuruharan]

...and know what I will say, but for clarity I'll ask...

He lost his life - I specifically avoided saying he died
davem

What specifically do you mean by that?

Perhaps we should move this over to the CbC discussion since it will probably heavily relate to it.

We dodge suffering, as humans, and we hate it, but it creates something that rose petals and an easy life cannot.
mark12_30

Yes. Cynicism and bitterness.

Oh, wait, you meant strength of character...oops.