Is Eru God?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Although Tolkien said that God was far too complex for him to put into words, I think it is plain that Eru is supposed to be God. The story of Ainulindele (sorry if I've spelt that wrong) bares similarities to some Biblical accounts. Firstly, creation being an offspring of Gods thought is a concept I have heard and bares resemblance to the Ainur. Also the way the Ainur sing to Eru is like onto how the Angels sing onto God, and also Melkor's discord is like Satan's rebellion.
I do not claim to be any great Tolkien scholar, or even Bible scholar, but these things seem to jump out at me. So from this I gathered that Eru was, in Tolkien's intentions, God. *shrug*

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
why neither Eru nor the Christian God (in the broad sense) fit my conception of God (assuming that there is such a being).

Well, then, I feel the need to point out the original point of the thread:

Originally posted by Fordim Hedgethistle
Is Eru God? Please note that the question isn't, "Is Eru the god of Middle-Earth?" (he pretty clearly is) but, is Eru the Elvish name for God (Jehovah)?

There's a lot hanging on this question: if you believe that Eru is God, then you are saying that the moral "rules" of M-E are Christian. If you believe that Eru is not God, then those "rules" are something else.

The question was is “Eru equivalent to the Judea-Christian God?” not “Is Eru equivalent to your view of God?”

And, I said before, of course there is merit in discussing how this applies to your own spiritual growth. That’s just not what we’re supposed to be discussing here.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

The question was is “Eru equivalent to the Judea-Christian God?” not “Is Eru equivalent to your view of God?”

The problem with simplifying it that much is that even within the group of people who believe in the Judea-Christian God, everybody still perceives Him differently. Throw in non-Christians as well as people who are simply not religious at all and you've got a the most fantastic makings for a long and enlightening discussion. You see, before you can decide if Eru is equivalent to the Judea-Christian God, you've got to figure out just who or what the Judea-Christian God is. It's like staring into shadow and trying to compare a hidden object to the one in your hand. You can't make a blanket statement about it. You can't even make a simple statement until you get some sort of idea of what it is that's just out of view.

[Roa_Aoife]

Excellent point, Fae. My apologies for not clarifying my point better. I still say that we should go with author's intent on this one. What I meant by my post to Saucy was that things were getting too far off base from the original idea.

Which I'm staying on what Tolkien thought, by the way. Thank you for summing up my point.

[Gurthang]

Well, I can see this is going around in circles. I know I'm not the first to say it, but we're debating what the question is, rather than possible answers. Well, you want to debate questions, let us debate questions.

Originally Posted by Fordim

OK, here's one for you all to consider:

Is Eru God? Please note that the question isn't, "Is Eru the god of Middle-Earth?" (he pretty clearly is) but, is Eru the Elvish name for God (Jehovah)?

There's a lot hanging on this question: if you believe that Eru is God, then you are saying that the moral "rules" of M-E are Christian. If you believe that Eru is not God, then those "rules" are something else.

I did a search for threads on this topic but kept getting messages that the search terms I used (Eru, God, is eru god, what is eru) are "too common": so obviously there's a lot of material out there already. If you know of a thread post it here please so we can all review it.

In this post, I see six possible questions.

1. Is Eru God?
   I'll answer this last.
   
2. Is Eru the god of Middle-Earth?
   Obviously yes.
   
3. Is Eru the Elvish name for God?
   Considering that Tolkien translated prayers into Elvish and used Eru for God points to the fact that Eru means God.
   
4. Is Eru the Elvish name for God (Jehovah)?
   This may look like the same question, but is entirely different. Eru might very well mean God in Elvish, but that doesn't point to it meaning God(Jehovah) exclusively. Iluvatar is truly God in M-E, and so will be called Eru.
   
   Think about our own world today: Allah vs. Jehovah(I'm using Jehovah to avoid confusion.). Muslims call Allah God. Christians call Jehovah God. The names might be the same, so does that make them the same? I'd say no, because there are fundamental differences between them.
   
   Likewise in Iluvatar vs. Jehovah. Iluvatar is Eru(which means God), in which case Jehovah could also be called Eru. But that does not make Iluvatar and Jehovah the same. It simply means that Tolkien translated God into Elvish rather than translating Jehovah.
5. Do you believe that Eru is God and so Christian morals are in M-E.
   This question is flawed in my opinion. (And I know it is not directly asked, but it was implied.) By what I said above, Eru(Iluvatar) does not mean God(Jehovah), but I still hold that Christian morals are in M-E. But that violates the nature of the question.
   
6. Do you believe that Eru is not God and so Christian morals are not in M-E?
   Pretty much the same as above.

Now. To answer the first question: "Is Eru God?". God translates to Eru, so in that sense, yes. But I do not believe that Jehovah would translate to Iluvatar? Absolutely Not!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Gurthang, may I ask a seventh?

7. Did Tolkien intend Eru to be read as God (Jehovah)?

I think that is the real question here. Otherwise, it seems to me that we may be delving into the realms of "canonicity, the book or the reader" which is a whole other thread of discussion.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Gurthang, may I ask a seventh?

7. Did Tolkien intend Eru to be read as God (Jehovah)?

I don't think he even 'considered' it - it was so obvious to him that they were the same that he would assume his readers would understand that. I suspect this whole debate would seem superfluous to him.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

7. Did Tolkien intend Eru to be read as God (Jehovah)?

Oooooo...now that's a way of thinking about this that had not occured to me: love it! I think that there are probably several answers:

In the Sil I think that Eru clearly was Tolkien's 'version' of God and was meant to be taken in that light.

But I'm not so sure about LotR where, of course, Eru never really appears 'directly', only by very distant inference through the shadowy allusions to Elbereth et al who "dwell in the West". And here I think we see an example of Tolkien's stated preference for applicability over allegory insofar as he decided to leave his story, and his world, more 'open'. Tolkien was no fool and would have been more than aware that:

1) a lot of people in the world do not believe in God

2) a lot of people in the world do not believe in the Christian God

3) a lot of people in the world do not believe in the Catholic God

4) most people in the world do not believe in Tolkien's version of the Catholic God, whom he has emodied in the tale as Eru.

To include Eru overtly would have immediately put a gloss on the events that force readers down paths they don't want to go, or creates a barrier that they have to contend with.

So while I think Eru in the Silmarillion is pretty cleary 'supposed' (by Tolkien) to be interpreted as God, I think the shadowy "power" or "forces" at work 'behind the scenes' in LotR is 'supposed' by Tolkien to be ambiguous enough for different readers to respond to in their own way. What I see Tolkien striving for in LotR is not a particular sense of the Creator/God but for a more impersonal sense of the sacred: the landscape of Middle-Earth, the narrative itself, the peoples that we meet, the 'plan' that seems to guide history, the legends and history that the Elves inhabit all give off the odour of sanctity, even perhaps of divinity, without locating that sense within any single form or version of a god.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

[*]Is Eru the Elvish name for God (Jehovah)?
This may look like the same question, but is entirely different. Eru might very well mean God in Elvish, but that doesn't point to it meaning God(Jehovah) exclusively. Iluvatar is truly God in M-E, and so will be called Eru.

Think about our own world today: Allah vs. Jehovah(I'm using Jehovah to avoid confusion.). Muslims call Allah God. Christians call Jehovah God. The names might be the same, so does that make them the same? I'd say no, because there are fundamental differences between them.

Likewise in Iluvatar vs. Jehovah. Iluvatar is Eru(which means God), in which case Jehovah could also be called Eru. But that does not make Iluvatar and Jehovah the same. It simply means that Tolkien translated God into Elvish rather than translating Jehovah.

Some interesting thoughts there, Gurthang, but I believe that your definitions are flawed.

First of all, Eru is not simply Elvish for "God". It is Elvish for "the One". (See the definition in the Silmarillion of the root "er", which is defined as meaning "one, alone"). In this context, it is more similar to Yahweh (also translated as Jehovah), meaning "I am" than it is to "God".

Next, Iluvatar means "All-father", and is thus much closer in meaning to our refering to God as "Father".

Finally, your reference to "Allah" is also somewhat flawed, since "Allah" is simply Arabic for "The God".

Furthermore, many Christians, Catholics anyway, will tell you that the Muslims believe in the same God as us, they simply don't have the same beliefs concerning how to live under Him here on earth.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Furthermore, many Christians, Catholics anyway, will tell you that the Muslims believe in the same God as us, they simply don't have the same beliefs concerning how to live under Him here on earth.

Note that contrary to what people believe, the gods of the People of the Book (Jews, Christians, Muslims) are irreconciliably different. And as someone once said, words mean exactly what you pour into them. You say "dog" and everyone pictures their favorite pooch. What we tend to forget is that my dog is a border collie and yours is a beagle.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

[*]Do you believe that Eru is God and so Christian morals are in M-E.
This question is flawed in my opinion. (And I know it is not directly asked, but it was implied.) By what I said above, Eru(Iluvatar) does not mean God(Jehovah), but I still hold that Christian morals are in M-E. But that violates the nature of the question.
[*]Do you believe that Eru is not God and so Christian morals are not in M-E?
Pretty much the same as above.

I don't see how "Christian Morals" come into it - I rather think that the morals so described may be held by those of other religions or none.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't see how "Christian Morals" come into it - I rather think that the morals so described may be held by those of other religions or none.

I'm not sure why they come into play either. I was just responding to what Fordim stated in his first post of the thread.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

The question was is “Eru equivalent to the Judea-Christian God?” not “Is Eru equivalent to your view of God?”

No. The question (as clarified) was "Is Eru, in your opinion, God"? Fordim went on to reason that, if one believes that Eru is God, then the moral "rules" of Middle-earth must be Christian. In my opinion, that reasoning is defective because it relies on the assumption that God is the Christian God (whatever that involves - see below). And that is an assumption which I do not accept.

In any event, how can one answer the question as you have intepreted it given that, taking the Judeo-Christian God alone, there are widely differing interpretations of his nature? A fact that is supported by many of the responses to date on this very thread. In my opinion, one can only answer on the basis of one's personal view of God. Eru does not match up to my personal conception of God, and therefore my answer to the question can only be "no".

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

And, I said before, of course there is merit in discussing how this applies to your own spiritual growth. That’s just not what we’re supposed to be discussing here.

Ouch!

You seek to limit the nature of the discussion far too narrowly which, in my opinion, would be to its detriment. As should be clear from my response above, I believe that my comments are entirely relevant to the discussion at hand.

And even were they not, I would contend that they are a valid digression from the core topic.

Edit: Cross-posted with Fea (and others) who makes a similar point.

Edit 2:

Originally Posted by alatar

Apologies to SpM in advance for any inferred insult

None taken, old chap. Glad to be of service. Mind you, in light of our many similarities, you probably knew that already ...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

What I meant by my post to Saucy was that things were getting too far off base from the original idea.

Of course, that brings up the question of what the purpose of a Tolkien-related discussion forum is. Is it solely to further our understanding of Tolkien and his works? Or can it also serve to enhance our understanding of ourselves and others ...?

But don't worry. Before I get re-named the Wormcan Man, I'll readily acknowledge that that issue is getting widely off-topic.

[Roa_Aoife]

I'm going to leave it at this. We all seem to be in agreement that to Tolkien, Eru=God. I haven't seen that point disputed in sometime, so I will consider the point conceded. If anyone wants to further discuss this point, of course, I'd be happy to.

As to my personal veiws, Eru, to me anyway, seems just vague enough to fit almost anyone's veiw of God. (With regards to Estelyn, who made some very good points right off the bat.) As to Fae and Saucy, is it just me or does it seem that we're agruing the same point in different directions?

Thankyou, Gurthang, for pointing out that we're debating the questions rather than the answers. So perhaps we aren't asking the right question at all. Perhaps what we should be asking is, "What do you get when you multiply six by seven?"

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

The story of Ainulindele (sorry if I've spelt that wrong) bares similarities to some Biblical accounts. Firstly, creation being an offspring of Gods thought is a concept I have heard and bares resemblance to the Ainur. Also the way the Ainur sing to Eru is like onto how the Angels sing onto God, and also Melkor's discord is like Satan's rebellion.

Not sure where this fits in, but consider: if your knowledge/experience/personal beliefs include a 'fallen angel' and 'angels singing', etc, and if you were to read the Silmarillion, most definitely you would compare the two ideas and say, "these are similar." If you had the same knowledge and read a car repair manual, you would have a tough time finding the same nodes of concordance (though I find car repair a great way to induce prayer ).

Another example: The SpM and I both are male, are fathers and have posted pictures of ourselves holding our children in the picture forum. From some distant POV that makes SpM = alatar. Now, zooming in a bit, you would see that he and I differ in many many ways. Even if we were clones, we still would be different at some level. And some of my posts would indicate that I'm not always running on the same brain cells...

Now, just because the two ideas (for example, those expressed in the Silmarillion and the Christian Bible/theology) have the same words, themes, etc does not make them equal, especially as we humans are great at seeing patterns where none truly exist.

Apologies to SpM in advance for any inferred insult ("he compared me to himself - the nerve! ).