LotR1-FotR-Seq03

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

It's called suspense! or building the atmosphere up..... didn't gandalf turn up at night in the book too anyway? ok so he didn't grab him, but does this really matter?

Yes, it does in this case. In the minutes of film preceding the Frodo-grabbing scene, we see Gandalf as a wise caring old wizard man, beloved both by children and at least two older hobbits. We've seen him actually hug both of these characters. He could have simply yelled back to Frodo, "See ya!" as he ran out the door for Minas Tirith. But PJ has this character stop, turn and take a moment to reassure Frodo. And he places a hand on his shoulder. That touching is important, as it did not need to be in the film. This same touch on the shoulder would later be used to shock.

Nothing in the film (we hope!) appears by accident - we're not watching live footage but a medium in which there might be 29 individuals 'pictures' every second, and each of those pictures is what the producer/director wants us to see. This group made sure each of those pictures had the right color, brightness, computerized effects, etc. Now, to zoom back out, we have a main character doing something. Then, moments later, this same character does something that to me is out of character, and the only reason that I can posit for the action is cheap thrill.

If we are to have suspense, use a cat.

My guess, as stated previously, that we here could have written the scene to include suspense yet allow for the characters to remain internally consistent and also to show some 'traveling time.'

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by alatar

In the movie Mortal Kombat

Ouch! Okay, I have a few problems with Jackson's LotR, but there's no need to be insulting with Mortal Kombat comparisons.

Seriously, though, repetition is a useful tool for filmmakers, who work in a medium where you can't flip back a few pages if you get lost or confused. I'm not necessarily citing this hammering of Isildur's history as a flaw (though in fact I think there are places where Jackson overuses voice or flashback cues to MAKE SURE THE AUDIENCE GETS IT, but we'll come to those in time...), just making an observation. I think you're right that he's really drilling it for the sake of the Aragorn storyline down the road.

Originally Posted by Essex

We must also remember that Gandalf DID NOT KNOW THE RINGWRAITHS WERE HUNTING FRODO DOWN YET.

This is true, though I think that Jackson adds to the confusion by having Gandalf act as if he expects an enemy to appear at any moment in Bag End.

On a more general note on the timeline, I wonder if a solution -- more in keeping with Tolkien's favoring abridgement over compression -- would be to have Gandalf already suspect that Bilbo's ring is the Ring when he arrives in the Shire for the party. It'd go something like this:

• Bilbo, with Gandalf's help, gives up the Ring and leaves for Rivendell.
• Frodo arrives in Bag End and picks up the Ring. Gandalf conducts his fire test right away, Shadows of the Past, etc.
• Gandalf needs advice from Saruman, he leaves to get it.
• Time passes -- maybe a few scenes of Frodo in the Shire, only now it doesn't seem so safe anymore. Maybe we even start to see the Ring beginning to weigh on Frodo's mind.
• Maybe something like that scene at the Green Dragon, only now when Frodo hears talk of "strange folk abroad" and whatnot, he seems more concerned than ever.
• Gandalf has not returned. Frodo, filled with foreboding, decides he must leave the Shire without waiting for Gandalf (either Gandalf proposed his plan earlier as in the book, or Frodo decides for himself to seek Bilbo and his Elvish friends in Rivendell).
• Frodo leaves just in time as he hears the Gaffer being questioned by a Nazgûl.
• Etc...

I'm just spitballing off the top of my head, but I think something along these line would be a little cleaner, and also make Frodo a stronger, more active character.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

• Gandalf has not returned. Frodo, filled with foreboding, decides he must leave the Shire without waiting for Gandalf (either Gandalf proposed his plan earlier as in the book, or Frodo decides for himself to seek Bilbo and his Elvish friends in Rivendell).
• Frodo leaves just in time as he hears the Gaffer being questioned by a Nazgûl.
• Etc...

I'm just spitballing off the top of my head, but I think something along these line would be a little cleaner, and also make Frodo a stronger, more active character.

Does Frodo know that Bilbo has gone off to Rivendell? Is that stated previously? And Gandalf points Frodo to Bree, which I think would have been better if he were to point him to Rivendell after going though Bree ("I'll meet you at the Prancing Pony in Bree; if I'm not there, then try to make it onto Rivendell."). He could even have said something about meeting someone along the way who may help, kind of like the elves whom Frodo meets who put out the word that he's out and about.

And by the by, my statement regarding Gandalf smoking in the corner of Bag End was silly. Isn't that the exact way Frodo encounters Strider? The audience, seeing all of the repetition might start thinking that the smoking lobby was underwriting the film ("Good guys smoke in the dark..." or "By their smoke you will know them.").

[Mister Underhill]

I think Gandalf has a line, something like, "He's gone to stay with the Elves." Anyway, if we're rewriting, it's easy enough to have Frodo know or be told that Bilbo is in Rivendell. The details of the plan can be figured out; the important changes are that we'd remove the Gandalf travel/research bit, Gandalf would have a more reasonable reason for leaving Frodo and the Ring in the Shire, and Frodo would become a more active character.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I think Gandalf has a line, something like, "He's gone to stay with the Elves." Anyway, if we're rewriting, it's easy enough to have Frodo know or be told that Bilbo is in Rivendell. The details of the plan can be figured out; the important changes are that we'd remove the Gandalf travel/research bit, Gandalf would have a more reasonable reason for leaving Frodo and the Ring in the Shire, and Frodo would become a more active character.

Why?

remove the Gandalf travel/research bit - This happens in the book, so it should stay.

Gandalf would have a more reasonable reason for leaving Frodo and the Ring in the Shire - this is a 3 hour movie, we can't show and extra few moths in the Shire whilst we've built up the tension to a high degree.

and Frodo would become a more active character - Frodo becomes an active character, and indeed it is one of the defining bits in this movie - when he graps the ring as says 'What must I do.' - marvellous line and acting, showing he HAS become active and taken Action.

Originally Posted by Alatar

Then, moments later, this same character does something that to me is out of character, and the only reason that I can posit for the action is cheap thrill.

Ok, partly I think it is done for the 'thrill' - (but not a cheap one) - We have built the last few scenes building up the tension around this ring being the One Ring - We have to remember it is a movie and not a mini series where we cantake things at a more sedate pace - the movie has to move along - so making Gandalf appear nervous / scared / worried that Frodo stilli has the Ring works for me. It is definately not on the top of my 'Annoyed by the Changes' List! - We have Gandalf in this state of mind to tie in with him sending Frodo off straight away - and this ties in with the Ring wraiths hunting Baggins down - I'm sorry to keep harping on about this, but he's just building the suspense up.

[Lathriel]

I actually like the Green Dragon scene. I think its okay. The rest of the movie is pretty serious anyway.
The killing of the the hobbit is completely unnessecary. The first time I saw it in the theatres I really didn't like that part.
It doesn't bother me that the letters take a while to appaer because it gives time for Frodo to say there is nothing there, and then to say there is something there which makes the whole scene more dramatic since Gandalf can show his reaction which I absolutley like. And I still see his fist reaction as relief.
I also like the part where the Shire is shown at sunrise and all is peaceful untill the black Rider steps into the frame. Its like, "oh look at the lovely shire,its so peaceful." (Black rider appears) Never mind" I like all the scenery shots but I think this movie is awesome at always using the scenery to the best advantage.
I was really glad they put the woodelves back in, if only for a cameo.
The time thing doesn't bother me since it would really undermine the point themovie is trying to establish. If the movie said 17 years later...Some people might be wondering why the ring is seen as such a powerful object. When the characters get panicked about it they might be thinking,"So? Nothing happened in 17 years" I guess the point I am trying to get at is that the need for quick action is lost.
I really like this sequence in general. It took me a few times of watching the movie before I figured out that Gollum shouted, "Mordor, Sauron!"

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm, may be I am missing something, but there appears to be much wailing and gnashing of teeth here over what seem to me to be some fairly trivial issues.

Working from memory, none of the issues being discussed here gave me any cause for concern or confusion when I first watched FotR at the cinema. Admittedly, it was some time since I had last read the book at that point, but this sequence of scenes seemed to me to pass pretty much as I recalled from the book. I think that I did notice the attenuated timeline, but it didn't impinge at all upon my enjoyment of the film. Watching it, it all seemed pretty logical to me. I therefore find it difficult to see how any of these issues can comprise real criticisms of the film, in the sense of making it any less understandable or internally credible.

To be a bit more specific:

The timeline is not the same as that of the book. But it works for me. It flows pretty logically and, essentially in film terms, swiftly. I am with those who say that an apparent gap of more than a few months, let alone a few years, would have created unnecessary confusion and destroyed the tension that Jackson carefully builds up in these scenes. To my mind, the attenuated timeline enhances the film as a film.

The Rider beheading the Hobbit is not an issue for me, one way or the other. If anything, it demonstrates the Ringwraiths as a physical, rather than merely a psychological, threat, and is therefore likely to make the need to escape them more real in the minds of most audience members.

I believe Gandalf's visit to Minas Tirith's library to be important, since it enables the audience to understand how Gandalf comes to discover that this is indeed the One Ring. It explains why the appearance of the inscription on the Ring shows Gandalf and Frodo that this is the One Ring. The more observant members of the audience (and those who have read the book) will realise that this would have involved a round trip of some months and so assume that this is how long Gandalf took. The issue will be irrelevant to less observant audience members.

I suppose that it is slightly against Gandalf's character to jump out at Frodo from the darkness. I understand Mister Underhill's point about avoiding the temptation to use a great shot or moment if it undermines other parts of the film. However, given that it did not occur to me as being out of character when I watched the film, I don't see it as a big issue. I should imagine that most people are too busy enjoying the moment of shock that it creates to worry about whether it is the sort of thing that Gandalf would do. It could also be argued, I suppose, that it serves to illustrate Gandalf's worried state of mind, as a result of his discovery that this may be the One Ring. He is so preoccupied with it that he overlooks how his sudden appearance will startle Frodo. Nevertheless, of all the points raised here, this seems to me to be the most valid.

The delay in the words appearing on the Ring is just not an issue for me at all. It is not inconsistent with anything else in the film. When we see Isildur with the Ring, the inscription is already there because the Ring was already hot when he picked it up. When the Ring falls into Mount Doom, the inscription appears after a delay, so that is entirely consistent with what we see here. In these circumstances, I see no reason why Jackson should not play around a little with the audience's expectations and use the moment to show the states of mind of Gandalf and Frodo in their words and expressions.

One point that I think could possibly cause confusion is the fact that it remains unexplained how Gandalf uncovered Gollum's story. However, since this point did not occur to me when I first watched the film, I don't see it as a major issue. We can assume that there was good reason for Gandalf to have this knowledge, without actually knowing the reason.

Finally, I don't think that it will occur to many to wonder why Gandalf considers it more important to visit the head of his Order than to accompany Frodo and Sam. The reason for Gandalf's visit to Saruman is well explained and credible in the circumstances. After all, he does not know that the Ringwraiths are in the Shire. The more likely audience reaction is: "Oh no! Gandalf's going of to see his boss leaving Sam and Frodo alone to face those Black Riders, because he doesn't know that they are so close." Thus, the situation contributes to the rising tension.

OK, so this post may sound like I am Jackson's apologist. In some respects I suppose that I am, largely because of my admiration for his immense achievement. But that does not hold true for the entire film trilogy. There are many changes from book to film that I think are worth challenging because they do create internal inconsistencies or because I think that a different approach could have made the films better. But I see little point in criticising changes for the sake of it, particularly ones which are, on any analysis, minor and which, in my humble opinion, do little to impair the film and, indeed, in some cases actually enhance it.