Curses! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gurthang · 10-29-2005, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Return of the King; The Passing of the Grey Company

Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end."

Bergil, he did curse them.

I'm glad you called me on that, or else I wouldn't have gone back and reread the passage. The part that really tugs at me is where it says 'if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master'. I think Isildur is basically calling on the Valar to do this and show that they are stronger than Sauron. Which of course they are; so they did.

Bergil · 10-30-2005, 01:52 PM

my theory was that the involvement of a maia (Sauron), not a deliberate ues of his powers, made the situation un-natural/magical enough for the aggreement/curse to bind the people of Dunharrow. excuse me for forgetting that it WAS a "curse", but the curse could have worked because of Sauron's inolvement, the same as an "agreement".

Voralphion · 10-30-2005, 08:43 PM

I believe one of the factors in the curse of Isildur was the dead themselves. They had made an oath, which are very strong in ME, and since they had not fulfilled it they did not allow themselves to rest until they had done so. Their unfinished business and associated guilt/fear caused them to be unable to rest and hang around the paths of the dead, where they made their original oath.

Gurthang · 10-30-2005, 11:31 PM

That's a really interesting point, Voralphion. I'd never thought of that before. I'm not sure I agree though. If the dead were so adamant about fulfilling their oath, then wouldn't they have just done so in the first place? Also, the curse wasn't made until after they had failed to follow through on their promise.

arcticstorm · 11-07-2005, 09:43 AM

Isildur's curse is odd, because in teh Akallabeth, I believe, it says that the Valar cannot take away teh gift of Eru and grant immortality, so theoretically , only Eru himself could have enacted this curse, I think because of that it makes it the strongest of the three

but of the two curses originally discussed, the Doom on Mandos seems to be the strongest. It had its effects over a long period of time and slowly worked on the entirety of the Noldor to teach them humility.

10-30-2005, 01:52 PM	#2
Bergil Wight Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: the Lepetomaine Gambling Casino For The Insane Posts: 157	my theory was that the involvement of a maia (Sauron), not a deliberate ues of his powers, made the situation un-natural/magical enough for the aggreement/curse to bind the people of Dunharrow. excuse me for forgetting that it WAS a "curse", but the curse could have worked because of Sauron's inolvement, the same as an "agreement". __________________ I support...something.

10-30-2005, 08:43 PM	#3
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	I believe one of the factors in the curse of Isildur was the dead themselves. They had made an oath, which are very strong in ME, and since they had not fulfilled it they did not allow themselves to rest until they had done so. Their unfinished business and associated guilt/fear caused them to be unable to rest and hang around the paths of the dead, where they made their original oath. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

10-30-2005, 11:31 PM	#4
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	That's a really interesting point, Voralphion. I'd never thought of that before. I'm not sure I agree though. If the dead were so adamant about fulfilling their oath, then wouldn't they have just done so in the first place? Also, the curse wasn't made until after they had failed to follow through on their promise. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

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11-07-2005, 09:43 AM	#5
arcticstorm Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Johnson Bible College: Knoxville, TN Posts: 464	Isildur's curse is odd, because in teh Akallabeth, I believe, it says that the Valar cannot take away teh gift of Eru and grant immortality, so theoretically , only Eru himself could have enacted this curse, I think because of that it makes it the strongest of the three but of the two curses originally discussed, the Doom on Mandos seems to be the strongest. It had its effects over a long period of time and slowly worked on the entirety of the Noldor to teach them humility.