LotR1-FotR-Seq02

[Lathriel]

I never thought about the Point of View in these movies and I don't feel that the movies take on a particular point of view at all. I all seems to be in Third peron (forgot the term for all-knowing,blushes) to me. (That is if the movie was written down into a book, it would probably turn into third person)

I did like the shire and it didn't seem artificial to me. I haven't seen the teletubbies on t.v but from the pictures I have seen they don't remind me of the Shire at all.

I LOVE the fireworks because I am an absolute firework nut. The smoke rings are cool and I actually never saw Sam as a skinny Hobbit.

[Essex]

I think the major issue Jackson has to deal with in adapting the books is not the POV issue, but the NARRATION issue. A lot of detail (especially exposition) is dealt with by Tolkien using a narrator’s voice.

Jackons does not use this in his films (except at the Prologue) – I personally don’t think narration works in films, and only a few try it – for example, how bad was the original version of Bladerunner compared with the ‘director’s cut’? ie the cinematic release had Ford narrating over it, and the director’s cut (without the narration) is far superior in my opinion.

Anyway, to get to my point, how Jackson deals with not having a narrator (and some other issues I'll point to) can be summed up here.
Someone earlier pointed out that if Bilbo hadn’t seen Gandalf in years, then why did the children know it was Gandalf? I think we already have been given a decent enough answer for this (is I think it boils down to Gandalf being a ‘legend’ amongst hobbits, and maybe something they tell their children/grandchildren about). Anyway, the reason we have this issue is that in the book, it is not Bilbo who Gandalf says this to but Frodo.

Film:

Good to see you. One hundred and eleven years old, who would believe it? You haven't aged a day

Now, we have the book:

Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved, but unchanged would have been nearer the mark

and

'Ah well eh? You look the same as ever, Frodo!'

Gandalf meets back with Frodo after Bilbo had left Bag End. Notice Gandalf looks at Frodo, not Bilbo and sees that he hadn’t changed after coming back to the Shire after a period of 9 years of absence. Therefore Jackson uses this scene to have Gandalf explain to the audience how old Bilbo is and that he hasn’t aged. Tolkien describes this in FOTR.

This is an issue Jackson has throughout the films, and this is why I can forgive him the changes. (To add to this, Jackson couldn't have Frodo in this scene to show the 9 and 12 year gaps in seing Gandalf - how could he make the hobbits look 12 years younger in the party scenes? - another reason for a film to be different to a book)

Other examples (and also a strange turn around about Tea and wine!):

(Bilbo): Tea? Or maybe something a little stronger. I've got a couple of bottles of the old winyard left. 1296. Very good year. Almost as old as I am. It was laid down by my father.

(taken from Tolkien’s description of what Rory Brandybuck receives as a parting gift from Bilbo)

Gandalf: Just tea, thank you.

And THIS is the ‘turn around’ I mean – from The Hobbit, and Bilbo offers Gandalf tea, and get’s the reply:

What’s that? Tea! No thank you! A little red wine, I think, for me

– So our Movie Gandalf doesn’t like alcohol? Thank God he kept his pipe!!!!

To surmise, the precise moment I DEFINITLEY knew we we’re in good hands for these films was when we see Gandalf pick up the old map from the Hobbit – that attention to detail was marvellous – but to add to this listen very carefully you’ll hear Bilbo in the background saying:

You caught me a bit unprepared, I'm afraid. We’ve only got some chicken and a bit of pickle…There’s some cheese. Oh no, that won’t do. We’ve got raspberry jam, an apple tart. But not much for afters. Oh no, we’re all right. I’ve just found some sponge cake.

– paraphrased from the same scene I’ve mentioned in the Hobbit where Bilbo is besieged by Gandalf and the Dwarves

What’s that? Tea! No thank you! A little red wine, I think, for me” (Gandalf) “And for me” “And raspberry jam and apple-tart” (Bifur) “and mince-pies and cheese” “And pork-pie and salad” (Bombur)“And more cakes - and ale - and coffee, if you don’t mind” (Dwarves) “Put on a few eggs, there’s a good fellow!”

It’s little details like this that show the love and dedication the movie makers have for this film.

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by Essex

It’s little details like this that show the love and dedication the movie makers have for this film.

I'm not going to get into the debate of POV/narration, for me what was done worked.

I do like The Shire, and its inhabitants and how they were portrayed. A bit over-the-top but I think that is to establish very cleary that when the 4 hobbits find themselves later on this quest and doing what they came to do, that it is so out of nature and character for a hobbit to do those things. Out of the nine companions of the Fellowship, the 4 hobbits changed and grew the most.

Of this sequence, I like the theatre version better than the extended. It added unneccessarily to what was already established, hobbits are simple- carefree kind of people. Except I did like the scene where Bilbo can't find the ring. Now that "addict" moment really showed how strong the attachment to the ring is and makes more of an understanding why it was so hard for Bilbo to give it up.


There have been issues raised about the dumbing down of Pippin and in particular Merry, that I'd like to address. In terms of book to movie, in the book at the time of the party, Bilbo is 111, Frodo is 33, Pippin is 17, Merry is 18(I think) and Sam is a few years older (like early 20's) then the Frodo and company leave The Shire for Rivendell 17 years later making Frodo- 50, Pippin-32 and so forth.

Since P.J. decided not portray the 17 years difference and since there really is no age given the hobbits (that I can recall), the only thing we have to go on is that Sam is old enough to get married (in the end), Frodo is "grown" since he's left on his own, and Merry and Pippin are younger than Frod and Sam.

What's my point? I think Merry and Pippin weren't dumbed down, just shown how they probably did behave in their late teen years.

[Kath]

I haven't read this through properly yet as I have to go to bed but I just wanted to pick up on one point before I forgot it. When Bilbo is talking about the Hobbit's of the Shire and gently insulting their ways and habits, it reminds me so much of the beginning of FotR when he is giving away special presents to people, and there are little notes with each that gently jibe in a similar way. That was a nice touch by PJ if he intended it, and good anyway even if he didn't.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm greatly enjoying these discussions, reading every post and attempting to keep up and watch the sequences in order to contribute. Sometimes, as in this case, I may be a bit late; therefore my comments will be rather random, in hopes of not repeating too much which has already been said.

I like the beginning scene, with Bilbo in his study, beginning to write down the story. It's a nice link to Sam's later speech about living in a story. However, the title and the story he begins do not match! "There and Back Again" is The Hobbit; "Concerning Hobbits" is in LotR. I know, Jackson could hardly show him writing a story called "The Lord of the Rings", since he doesn't yet know what will happen. Still, it's a minor but interesting discrepancy for book readers to note.

Gandalf's remarks about a wizard arriving precisely when he means to are enjoyable - one of the instances where movie dialogue can hold up to book dialogue. I felt more than just the humor of the remark, though - it's a foreshadowing of his failure to arrive on time to meet the hobbits. Even a wizard cannot control all circumstances of his life.

We see an annoying number of "Ring in Frodo's hand" shots throughout the movie, so I found it refreshing that Jackson did not show the Ring in Bilbo's hand in the study, when he finds it. It is not openly shown until after the birthday party.

[Lathriel]

We forgot to talk about one lovely line that Holm delivers so well along with gestures. "I like less then half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less then half of you half as well as you deserve." I love that line also because you can see that only Gandalf and Frodo understand what he means. Also the hand gestures are awesome since they illustrate the roundabout way of the quote as Holm turns his hand in a circle and finishes by pointing to the hobbits.
I really like the birthday speech because they kept it so close to the book. I also have to laugh at the smoke that passes behind Holm because that is the cake that caught on fire.

[doug*platypus]

This thread hasn't been posted on for a year! Yet it hasn't aged a day...

Overall I really enjoyed the look of The Shire, although I had imagined in my own mind that the area around Bag End, at least, would be more built up, with more hobbit holes and less green pasture. I'm grateful that PJ chose to show us quite a few shots of The Shire. I believe it's important to establish this out of the way, idyllic, peaceful part of the countryside, to show what the forces of good were really fighting for. And also to show the rustic background which the hobbits sprang from, so that we can see how they grow in their worldliness and sophistication as the trilogy proceeds.

The interior of Bag End itself was simply marvellous. Every detail was lovingly crafted, from the round door (which they made entirely believable and acceptable, no mean feat IMHO) to Thorin's map.

I don't particularly like the meeting between Gandalf and Frodo. It seems a little forced, to me, especially the maniacal laughter at something which wasn't really all that funny. I can understand PJ wanting to include it to establish that the two had a relationship, but I think that the beginning of the movie would have been just as well without it. For me, the story really begins when we see an old man in a battered hat driving a cart up to Bag End. That would have been a more mysterious and moody opening. Remember that the wizard is one of the most dangerous people in Middle Earth. He loves the hobbits, but I think that Frodo giving him a big soppy hug was a little misplaced, and as for telling him he was late, well downright rude!

All of the scenes involving Bilbo and Gandalf together were absolute gold! McKellan and Holm are both brilliant actors, and put on great performances. "You haven't aged a day" was well done; a hint of something sinister to those familiar with the books (although Bilbo did look significantly older than the 50 year old who discovered the Ring in the prologue). "You want It for yourself!" was just great! Well acted out with the hand movements and all... Bilbo was really riled up!

PJ and co cannot be praised enough for pulling off the perspective shots near flawlessly. The respective sizes of Gandalf and the hobbits were well established and faithfully kept in order.

I enjoyed the party scenes, and thought that Bilbo's disappearance was handled well. It came off as a real surprise! Even to Gandalf, which was not going by the book, but this worked quite well.

I liked the way that the Ring was made into a living character, with Its very own close ups, and even speech?! Although I thought that seeing the Red Eye so early on in the movie was a bit much.