TOL-IN-GAURHOTH XII, Erbar Telamarth

[mormegil]

The way the plan would work is it might be discernable for us to see whose votes might not be so random, if you take my meaning. Wolves will inevitabely save themselves if need be and it may help further down the road and the beauty of it is that we eliminate wolfish influence from the true innocents vote and leave their influence to a more macro, and easier to detect, scale. Though as most plans for order are normally shot down I'm sure this plan for order based on not having order will be shot down as well.

[Anguirel]

The plan is original, but I don't think our wolves would be rash enough to fall into its trap. However, since it has not been essayed before, and seems at the least right unlikely to backfire, I am prepared to make a trial of it. I shall allow the Valar to assist and advise my vote, rather than mere reason, relatively soon.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

The way the plan would work is it might be discernable for us to see whose votes might not be so random, if you take my meaning. Wolves will inevitabely save themselves if need be and it may help further down the road and the beauty of it is that we eliminate wolfish influence from the true innocents vote and leave their influence to a more macro, and easier to detect, scale. Though as most plans for order are normally shot down I'm sure this plan for order based on not having order will be shot down as well.

Probably, I suppose...

But let me ask another question:

Supposing all the villagers pick on the wrong people (not an impossibility, by any means), leaving the Wolves free to vote for each other and/or regular villagers, saving themselves and killing off others?

Your plan is a well-thought one, but I'm thinking that it cannot really succeed, without eventually disintegrating into a regular bandwaggoning. All it takes is two random-voters with the same suspicions voting the same way, and posting their thoughts, and you've got the makings of a bandwaggon.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, LMP, it seems to me that your kind offer of comfort is a bit indiscriminate, to say the least! If you spread your favours so generously, how are we to assume you a good judge of character? Aside from that, I would not risk being alone with any inhabitant of our village for awhile...

[Anguirel]

To the chase! As my grievous wound keeps me from the saddle, I tend to immerse myself in the study of lore and poetry in the darkling hours. As a result, I must say my piece quickly, acting in accordance with the messenger's untried scheme.

Hence...to avenge the insult to the Lady Estelyn, and because of a residual distrust of the Dor-Lomin folk, lacking any sense of honour as they do...

++BOROMIR88

Can this man make his living by insulting his betters, including those among the gentler sex? He is either an idle layabout or a wolf.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

To the chase! As my grievous wound keeps me from the saddle, I tend to immerse myself in the study of lore and poetry in the darkling hours. As a result, I must say my piece quickly, acting in accordance with the messenger's untried scheme.

Hence...to avenge the insult to the Lady Estelyn, and because of a residual distrust of the Dor-Lomin folk, lacking any sense of honour as they do...

++BOROMIR88

Can this man make his living by insulting his betters, including those among the gentler sex? He is either an idle layabout or a wolf.

I find this rather interesting that he says he will go along with the random plan and yet he seems to not be quite as random. I could be misreading this but it seems that I am correct.

It seems a bit odd and I wanted to point it out.

[the guy who be short]

Alas! Death is upon us!

Death! Death! *tugs furiously upon beard*

Now that the theatrics are comfortably over, I would like to assert that I am most definitely not a weredwarf. Whoever heard of such a ridiculous creature?

So who is a werewolf?

Well, it seems quite obvious to me... Yes, that's right. Sauron.

Other than him? Not quite sure yet.

[Anguirel]

Aye! I have our triumvirate! the guy who be short has shown the way...

Sauron, Draugluin and Carcharoth. There, I've saved the village. I must be the Seer!

I sense the presence of many other villagers...why then this silence? Am I to be left alone to test mormegil's plan? Let's get the debate continuing...

[Boromir88]

Boromir I believe that you are a bit touched in the head. There is nobody in this village named Sauce, unless you are using that as code for your friends.~mormegil

Ok, so I'm a little paranoid, but atleast I'm no fool.

You people think you're so high and mighty for defending (And perhaps saving) villages from the wolves destructive path. It's rather ridiculous if you ask me, and goes no way to clear your name at all. It may even look more suspicious, either you had a lucky escape, or you made a bargain with the wolves, and now you've come to kill us!

Sensible statements from all, sensible indeed. Yet fair words may hide a foul tongue, as it's said.~Firefoot

So, would you agree that foul words may hide a fair tongue?

As much as I would hate to admit it, despite Anguirel's vote for me, I doubt he's a wolf. Atleast, above anyone else here he's worthy of the title "sir" (ahem, unlike "Lord" phantom), however foolish and mislead of a knight he is.

I wouldn't doubt it if a wolf jumps onto Anguirel's foolish vote to watch me kick over today, but this village is more moronic than I thought and every last one of you deserve to be slaughtered and cut into tiny pieces by the wolves If I'm hanged.

Lhuna and Estelyn still remain as my suspects and since mormegil has corrected me, and he seems really to be the most brilliant one here so far, I don't really mind him. So, my last suspect is the guy who be short, who tried to be funny with the "weredwarf" comment, but it really wasn't.

[Boromir88]

On a note more specifically for Estelyn...

Slandering my sewing, Boromir?? What kind of foul strategy is that? Even were I truly a werewolf, during the day my hands would be as skilled and delicate as you see them now. Were I truly a werewolf, would I give myself away by crude craftsmanship?

The truth hurts.

On this first day, we can only guess and choose at random. As yet, we have only words, no deeds by which to judge our fellow villagers.

You say this, then thou attack me for doing that exact thing! Sounds a bit hypocritical, does it not?

Nay, talk like that is foolish at best and suspicious at worst. That is not the way to pin down who is guilty.

Though the clothes you sew are rags I never thought you as a hypocrit!

[Mister Underhill]

Once, Ghân-undé-Ghân was a great head man. Now I only make the stones, watch, and listen. I do not understand the ways of you Stonehouse folk, but I do not like to think of you all eaten by wolf-men. I will stay and help you seek these beasts. Ghân-undé-Ghân, called by you Stonehouse folk "Mr. Underhill", hopes you will remember next time you are thinking of spicing up your lawn or your front hall. Watch-stones also make good gifts and are both practical and affordable.

Twelve of us. Three wolves. Who will win? I do not understand the plan of mormegil. Perhaps you can explain it in such a way that a humble stone-carver can understand. You want us all to vote to lynch a different person, or only a "random" person and then see where the votes fall?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Twelve of us. Three wolves. Who will win? I do not understand the plan of mormegil. Perhaps you can explain it in such a way that a humble stone-carver can understand. You want us all to vote to lynch a different person, or only a "random" person and then see where the votes fall?

That seems to be his plan...

Personally, I'm not convinced it will work, but I notice that it is Anguirel who is first out of the gates to cast a vote.

There goes any plan of a mass abstaining...

Random votes, random votes...

'Tis a most difficult thing to do, to cast a vote on what is, for all the information I have, a statistic of 11/14ths innocent...

[Encaitare]

Greetings, all. It is long since we have all assembled together... how are we all? Holding up well? It is indeed a tragedy; Lord Phantom was a good man.

I have been taking note of all your responses and ideas, and here is what I have to say thus far:

Anguirel! How very noble of you to offer your life to the village. Yet as selfless an act as it may be, it would be to little avail. We would, if we lynched you, have fourteen to choose from (and thirteen by the time the next DAY begins). Even though the odds of finding a wolf are then better, it is likely that an innocent will be lynched toDay anyway. That, unfortunately, is just how the odds run. If we vote, then we will at least have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a wolf.

With his offer in mind, I am inclined to believe that Anguirel is either an ordo with the best interests of the village in mind, or a bluffing wolf who assumed people would respond with the reasoning I gave above.

Mormegil's plan confuses me slightly. Randomly pick one of our fellows to lynch? It seems a little bit fishy, and probably would not be that effective for seeing who is a wolf and who is not. It is clear some of us have already formed opinions and theories about each other, no matter how full of holes they may appear. A truly random vote would be impossible, especially now that Anguirel has already voted.

I must away, but I shall return to this place later in the evening to read all else you have to say and to cast my vote.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Mister Underhill, Formendacil, and Fea.

[mormegil]

I'm starting to think that I will not follow my own plan but the point is that while all votes from innocents are truly random those from wolves will most likely not be and therefore easier to track. But the likelihood of the plan succeeding isn't great but it's a plan nonetheless.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Well, LMP, it seems to me that your kind offer of comfort is a bit indiscriminate, to say the least! If you spread your favours so generously, how are we to assume you a good judge of character? Aside from that, I would not risk being alone with any inhabitant of our village for awhile...

Forsooth! What do you think I was getting at? I am not such a one as to take advantage of an innocent, if that is what you are. I take advantage of no-one, and my heartfelt sympathy is certainly for all and anyone, no strings attached (although I don't mind you patronising my tavern). Far be it from me to indiscrimately boondoggle women to my bed! I am most discriminating in that pursuit!

[littlemanpoet]

I didn't really like the plan anyway, morm, no offense. Like most of these Day One plans, they tend to distract attention from trying to rout out the werewolves, they don't get enough support, and therefore they fail. Let's wait a few days by which time plans can be more helpful.

Fea, bad girl. I may have to dock your wages for that. The nerve of trying to impersonate someone from the far distant future. How anachronistic! Forsooth! And your plan sucks too. I think I ought to take you into my bedchamber and give you a proper spanking. Now, wouldn't that be fun?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I must now make my decision, whether tis better to vote now before retiring, though I would then not be able to take the following discussions into consideration, or to attempt to rise so early that I can catch up then and make my choice. Would it be less random later? I do not know.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I must now make my decision, whether tis better to vote now before retiring, though I would then not be able to take the following discussions into consideration, or to attempt to rise so early that I can catch up then and make my choice. Would it be less random later? I do not know.

It would certainly be less random later: you'd see who else voted how. But by doing so you run the risk of making yourself look more suspicous. .... and really wreak havoc on your sleeping schedule. But if you start to feel tired at any point, I've a bed just in the back room where you may take your rest in comfort and ease. I even have some wine and chocolate for your refreshment. And there are other things there that someone of the fairer sex would find quite pleasant. Feel free to take your leisure there.

[the guy who be short]

Sorry, my mistake, Cailin has actually posted before. That makes Shelob my candidate for the day.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by LMP

I didn't really like the plan anyway, morm, no offense.

None taken my local debauchee, I don't think my plan is likely to work as I stated but it at least got some good discussion going. Also I myself only planned on implementing my plan only if I didn't have some decent suspicion, which I feel like I have now though I will reserve that for a little while and see where the day takes us.

[Anguirel]

I think LMP's analysis should make it quite clear that my vote was utterly random-I merely invented some reasoning to make it seems somewhat less denuded.

Actually-as a knight should never vote to lynch a lady without good reason-I picked randomly from all the male villagers. Boromir received the short straw.

[Cailín]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Sorry, my mistake, Cailin has actually posted before. That makes Shelob my candidate for the day.

Good. I was already planning an indignant response to that. I'm very sorry for my silence but it could not be helped. I really promise better behavior in the future, should there prove to be one.

I have not had time to read everything thoroughly yet and am quite afraid I won't manage a close reading tonight. Though I normally hate random voting, tis what I'm probably going to do, hoping it will at least confuse the wolves and be unexpected.

I shall return later tonight. I think.

[littlemanpoet]

And just for the record (correct me if I've missed anything):

Firefoot:

• Questions: LMP, Fea, Shelob, & Anguirel
• Suspects: no-one
• Accuses: no-one
• Defends: no-one

Boromir:

• Questions: no-one
• Suspects: Lhuna, Esty, Guy
• Accuses: No-one
• Defends: Anguirel

Anguirel:

• Questions: Cailin, Firefoot
• Suspects: no-one
• Accuses: no-one
• Defends: Boromir
• Votes for: Boromir!

Eomer:

• Questions: no-one
• Suspects: no-one
• Accuses: no-one
• Defends: Mormegil

LMP:

• Questions: Firefoot
• Suspects: no-one
• Accuses: no-one
• Defends: no-one

That's all I have so far. Nobody else, as far as I can tell, has mentioned any names in any way that suggests questioning, suspecting, accusing, defending, and voting.

I've designed this list to be usable by anyone who wishes to join me in tracking such behavior. Feel free to correct me and or update the information.

[the guy who be short]

It is necessary that I disappear underground for some sleep in the next hour or so. We dwarves tend to turn in early, you see.

If neither Shelob nor Cailin have said something by then, I will vote for one of them. I dislike the silent.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

And your plan sucks too. I think I ought to take you into my bedchamber and give you a proper spanking. Now, wouldn't that be fun?

I should start a bandwagon for your lynching for that. I am a good and proper young lady and all should do well to remember it. Not to mention you're warping the poor young children of the village with your talk.

LMP, as I've little better to go on than minor annoyances, please defend yourself to me by providing an excellent strategy by which you think the village could win. So far, your talk has been based less on destruction of evil and more on what could quite easily be considered too much fun.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

How anachronistic!

But didn't you know? I'm rather fond of Anakronisms.

EDIT: cross-posted with the whole 3rd page

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I should start a bandwagon for your lynching for that. I am a good and proper young lady and all should do well to remember it.

Ah, but I know better, my tavern wench.

Originally Posted by Fea

LMP, as I've little better to go on than minor annoyances, please defend yourself to me by providing an excellent strategy by which you think the village could win.

I've beat you to it. My list may not be a plan, per se, but it certainly is a valid tool that can aid us in identifying suspicious behavior. So there. Go and wait some tables.

Originally Posted by the tavern wench

I'm rather fond of Anakronisms.

Now now now, "don't be trying to get maidens to bloom before they're ripe," as the saying goes. That is a saying, isn't it? Now 'git'! Eomer over there looks thirsty.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I've beat you to it. My list may not be a plan, per se, but it certainly is a valid tool that can aid us in identifying suspicious behavior.

Not good enough. Heck, I've got a list, and mine's more detailed than that which you posted. I want a strategy, not an observation.

[littlemanpoet]

Feanor remains on my list for the same reason the Phantom would were he still alive: formidable, and absolutely nothing she says can necessarily be taken at face value.

I now go to try and figure out what Eomer and Mormegil were talking about in 52 & 56, even looking in my posts in case they're barking up the wrong tree.

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, I've found a couple things that may or may not be what Eomer & Mormegil were talking about. I'm not going to mention them either.

But I am going to bring this up: while all of us post to the board about our suspicions, remember that the werewolves are talking with each other behind our backs, setting up the next step in their dire plot to thoroughly confound the innocents amongst us. Okay, so I'm slow for not fully taking to this reality until right now, but now I'm looking square at that reality, and it really makes our situation dire. Think about it. The whole time the innocents are reading these posts, the werewolves are PMing back and forth to each other, laying out the next step of who is going to say what and why, and what effect they hope to achieve by it.

Back to Eomer's & Mormegil's little bit of cahooting. The key posts are #41 - 51. If what Eomer is talking about has any basis in innocence, then there's something in there that must be read carefully, remembering that the werewolves can PM each other at will. If so, then one or more of the following people need to be looked at very, very carefully: Cailin, Anguirel, Esty, Firefoot, and Boromir. It could be, however, that Eomer & Mormegil are in fact werewolves who are plotting this nasty little distractor to get us all fishy and wondering what's being said in there while there's absolutely nothing, and we're off looking at the above named in vain.

I don't consider myself to be quite as astute as Eomer & Mormegil in picking up on the kinds of things they claim to have found. Therefore, maybe there's something there and I'm not seeing it; or, maybe there's nothing there and these two are werewolves. If I'm dead in the morning, it may be worthwhile taking a good hard look at these two, but then maybe the real werewolves will kill me off hoping to cast suspicion on them while they're innocent. So I don't know. But I just wanted to raise the issue.

I haven't had a chance to read Shelob's and Mister Underhill's posts yet, though it's not a true cross-post.

[Mister Underhill]

Okay, I've been taking a closer look at tgwbs, and I've found some stuff that jumps out at me:

#67 - Now that the theatrics are comfortably over, I would like to assert that I am most definitely not a weredwarf.

Hmm... not the same as saying he's not a werewolf... is he playing with us?

#83 - It is necessary that I disappear underground for some sleep in the next hour or so. We dwarves tend to turn in early, you see.

If neither Shelob nor Cailin have said something by then, I will vote for one of them. I dislike the silent.

#86 - Sorry, my mistake, Cailin has actually posted before. That makes Shelob my candidate for the day.

#94 - Esty - I base my "suspicion" of Shelob on the fact that she has not yet appeared. Voting her off, even if she is an innocent, will help in that it will remove a mysterious silent factor from the village.
Of course, if you're completely at a loss, it's always helpful getting an abacus to randomly choose somebody to kill for you.

Cailin - Sorry again.

#98 - [After Esty points out Lhuna's absence:] Hmm, I didn't notice Lhuna's absence. However I'm willing to put that down to time difference - seriously, that girl sleeps so late, it's like she's in another time zone.

Hmm again. This series of post strikes me as a little suspicious, with all their "mistakes" -- thinking Cailin hadn't posted when she had, then "not noticing" that Lhuna hadn't posted. I'm not too thrilled with the vote based on silence either. Several players that I now trust as innocents spoke out against this thinking at the time.

Then comes this post here in Mirth, in which tg links to a pic of himself as a Weredwarf. I know the short one is a joker. Is he taunting us here, or just being foolishly indiscreet?

#149 - tgwbs makes some analysis, including some definitive statements about several innocents. Time has proven him right on two out of three of those, and I trust morm, the last one on the list. What makes me nervous is how certain tg is so early in the game. Insight and a bit of recklessness, or wolfish knowledge showing?

#164 - Reassesses under the pressure of reactions to his analysis -- which makes me a bit nervous. Admits that some of his statements will make him look as though he has contracted "extreme schizophrenia". An unfortunate choice of words, or is he taunting us again?

#173 - Shorty gives all the reasons why he thinks he should vote for me, then votes for Shelob instead -- to keep a villager who was drawing a lot of suspicion alive? Hard to say.

#206 - Emphasizes that he predicted lmp's death. He says this as if it should make us trust him more, but how is this to his credit? He could easily have foreseen the death of our Ranger because he helped orchestrate it. Doesn't seem sorry about Shelob's death or his role in it: "Oh well."[/QUOTE]

#215 - 1) Formen suspects roughly the same people as me. Seems innocent.

2) Boro suspected Sauce to start off with.

Either startlingly bad analysis or a double-bluff in item 1. What's up with "Sauce" in item 2? Another "mistake"? Either tg is not playing a very attentive game (not his reputation, from what I gather from others' posts), or he's a wolf who can't resist toying with us. Knowing his sense of humor, the latter is easily a possibility.

In 228 and 232, tg asks for more info from morm on his Form suspicion, then, less than three hours later -- and even after morm provided some explanation of his suspicions -- he abruptly declares, "I'm bored of waiting" and casts vote for Lhuna with no explanation in the vote post and not much more in previous "analysis" posts.

Well, a closer look has made me feel worse, and not better about tgwbs.

I see Fea has posted and I don't have time to reply in detail. I'll say she's right to bring me up on the Firefoot point -- I composed that before she posted "I changed my mind." I do think your assumptions in #276 about who she dreamed about were hasty though. Trying to throw us off?

I've composed this up through about #303, so some of it may not take into account what has come after. I'll post it now and then read up, or I'll be stuck composing forever...

[Mister Underhill]

Okay, caught up now -- sorry for the double-post. The investigation idea sounds good, even though I've already conducted my own look into tgwbs. I'll take a closer look at morm. He's on my most trusted list and apparently had the trust of our Seer as well, and presumably wouldn't propose a daisy-chain investigation if he had anything to hide, but who knows what closer examination will reveal?

[Mister Underhill]

Sorry, one more thing I have to address very quickly:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Sure I am. I'm just like that. I like to be an individual, you know? Surely you don't expect me to continuously follow the crowd?

No, not follow the crowd. But surely it seems like sound innocent strategy to work to (1) identify the Seer and follow his/her lead, and (2) being unsure of the Seer's identity, attempt to find the most innocent villagers and work with them.

Being some sort of solo-rogue-individualist villager doesn't help anyone but the wolves -- if you're a wolf, it helps sow confusion and doubt; if you're innocent, it draws suspicion on yourself and only hinders the search for the true wolves.

[the guy who be short]

Hmm again. This series of post strikes me as a little suspicious, with all their "mistakes" -- thinking Cailin hadn't posted when she had, then "not noticing" that Lhuna hadn't posted. I'm not too thrilled with the vote based on silence either. Several players that I now trust as innocents spoke out against this thinking at the time.

The mistakes were due to the fact that I had much lore to investigate on the first day (ie College) which prevented my closely scrutinizing every post.

Votes based on silence are just another aspect of Werewolf infected villages that people disagree on a lot. I happen to believe that if somebody is going to be absent for prolonged periods of time, it gives nothing to work on in the future; thus, I aim to eliminate quiet people on the first Day.

#149 - tgwbs makes some analysis, including some definitive statements about several innocents. Time has proven him right on two out of three of those, and I trust morm, the last one on the list. What makes me nervous is how certain tg is so early in the game. Insight and a bit of recklessness, or wolfish knowledge showing?

It was obvious from their voting. Almost everybody else, excluding Fea, reached exactly the same conclusions.

#173 - Shorty gives all the reasons why he thinks he should vote for me, then votes for Shelob instead -- to keep a villager who was drawing a lot of suspicion alive? Hard to say.

Anybody who actually reads that post will notice that I was extremely unsure about who to vote for. I do not list points for lynching Mr U, then vote Shelob - the entire post shows my uncertainty concerning which one to vote for.

#206 - Emphasizes that he predicted lmp's death. He says this as if it should make us trust him more, but how is this to his credit? He could easily have foreseen the death of our Ranger because he helped orchestrate it.

The point was not "to my credit." It was to make people trust morm and Firefoot.

Either startingly bad analysis or a double-bluff in item 1. What's up with "Sauce" in item 2? Another "mistake"?

Startlingly bad for the former. And Boro actually did accuse Sauce to start off with. He got a little confused. Nice of you to bring that up though, it gives me faith in Boro again.

he abruptly declares, "I'm bored of waiting" and casts vote for Lhuna with no explanation in the vote post and not much more in previous "analysis" posts.

My posts show suspicion of Lhuna from Day 2, and she was high on my list for quite a while.

Finally, in response to Weredwarvery etc, may I not have my little jokes without falling under suspicion these days?

++TGWBS

I want to be lynched with Encai, as I have stated. If Boro and Fea vote for me, I'd appreciate that (I never thought I'd say that...) Esty and Mr U can vote for Enca. Incase Enca returns and does something malicious, I'd like morm to stick around until the end.

If Enca is not a wolf, on Day Two, please lynch: Feanor, Mr Underhill. Esty should be the one keeping her vote til the end, as I trust her most out of all of you, minus morm, who would die in the Night.

[Mister Underhill]

Ai, living in a village with crazy villagers doesn't help root out the wolves. Shorty, if you know you're innocent, why vote for yourself and ask to be lynched? Why not push for the two strongest werewolf candidates?

Either this vote is as crazy and unhelpful as Anguirel offering his neck for the noose on Day One, or you're a desperate wolf trying to throw the rest of us off your scent by self-voting.

Despite my analysis of tgwbs, I was still leaning towards Enca and Fea as the most likely wolf candidates. Now I don't know what to think.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't do that!!!!!!!!! Don't waste a perfectly good vote on someone who's not high on the suspected list! If the double lynching is to make any kind of sense, we need to vote for the top two on our list, all of us!

[Boromir88]

tgwbs is noble indeed sacrificing himself. I wonder if it be an attempt to get us to say "oh he must not be guilty" and follow behind me in wanting to sacrifice myself when really he is a wolf bluffing? But, I doubt it, so close to the wolves defeat, I don't think a wolf would want to bluff his way out and be suicidal.

Whether I'm another "candidate" up for lynching or not, I still oppose a double-lynching, many things can go wrong.

The cursed villager has been brought up, and if we end up lynching two innocents and not a wolf, of course we may have caught the cursed, but we might not have. In which the wolf stumbles upon luck and catches the cursed villager at Night, then it's over. Though this is highly unlikely, I'm sure its possible still if the Cursed happens to still be around.