An Arwen Discrepancy

[Kuruharan]

The point is, when she did not go with Elrond into the West, she became Mortal, and eventually would have died. Elrond's children had the choice of going into the West and remaining Immortal or to stay and become Mortal, Elrond was told this when he himself made the choice at the end of the First Age. Arwen could not change that to live forever. And she had already lived for 2900 years.

Yes, that's true. However, I'm afraid that you missed my point. She loved Aragorn so much that she gave up her immortality for him. I don't think that there was anyway that once Aragorn died that the grief could not have killed her. That was just a part of her decision. So, if she had not fallen in love with Aragorn, which eventually caused the grief she felt for him, she would have lived forever.

So I'm afraid that I am respectfully disagreeing with the viewpoint that she could have chosen to stay.

[sunrabbit]

Okay, here's my question--what exactly does it mean for Men to die? I promise this is not completely off-topic--bear with me for a second. Why is it considered a gift by some, and a curse by others? Supposedly the Numenoreans fell because they wanted to escape the Doom of Men (mortal death) and tried to sail to Valinor. Aragorn says something to Arwen that confuses me, though. He suggests that she could repent of her choice to live a mortal life and sail to the Undying Lands, but that if she did, their life together would only be a memory. Then he says, "In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory." Thereby suggesting that, on the other hand, if she stays and dies a mortal death, they will have a future together in the next life. Or at least, that's what it seems like he is saying. So, I guess what I'm wondering is--is there something more REAL or PROGRESSIVE about dying a mortal death and moving on, as opposed to living forever without passing into a life beyond the grave? Aragorn's words to Arwen seem to suggest that there is value in dying a mortal death (thereby justifying its being called the Gift of Men). Is this only because it is the only way for Arwen to be with Aragorn after his death (because they would be separated if she sailed to the Uttermost West), or is the value in the death/progression itself? What exactly does happen to Men who die? They go to the halls of waiting, and then what? And which fate is preferable? I just asked a hella lot of questions, but I'd love to hear everyone's input.

[Galadriel55]

Welcome to the Downs, sunrabbit! You ask some good questions.

Firstly, let's distinguish between the fate of Elves and Men. When Elves die, their spirits go to the Halls of Waiting, aka the Halls of Mandos, in the Uttermost West. Some Elves, after a certain time, are allowed to reincarnate, if they so choose. Others, like Feanor, are not allowed. It depends on what the Elf does in his/her lifetime. Whatever the options, though, the spirits of the Elves are bound to the world. They do not leave it.

Men do not go to the Halls of Mandos, and they are not bound to the world. When they die, their spirits leave it. I think they go to be with Iluvatar (the All-father that created the world), and I believe there is a legend that after the Middle-Earth equivalent of the end of the world the Men will participate in making the new world... Death was given to Men as a Gift from Iluvatar, but Morgoth put fear in their minds and turned it into a Doom.

Here is what Iluvatar says about Elves and Men in The Silmarillion, Of THe Beginning of Days:

"But the Quendi shall be the fairest of al earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani [Men] I will give a new gift." Therefore he willed it that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond theMusic of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world flufilled unto the last and smallest.

But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often,and would not use their gifts in harmony...

Most of this information is from The Silmarillion. Have you read it?

[sunrabbit]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Welcome to the Downs, sunrabbit! You ask some good questions.

Firstly, let's distinguish between the fate of Elves and Men. When Elves die, their spirits go to the Halls of Waiting, aka the Halls of Mandos, in the Uttermost West. Some Elves, after a certain time, are allowed to reincarnate, if they so choose. Others, like Feanor, are not allowed. It depends on what the Elf does in his/her lifetime. Whatever the options, though, the spirits of the Elves are bound to the world. They do not leave it.

Men do not go to the Halls of Mandos, and they are not bound to the world. When they die, their spirits leave it. I think they go to be with Iluvatar (the All-father that created the world), and I believe there is a legend that after the Middle-Earth equivalent of the end of the world the Men will participate in making the new world... Death was given to Men as a Gift from Iluvatar, but Morgoth put fear in their minds and turned it into a Doom.

Here is what Iluvatar says about Elves and Men in The Silmarillion, Of THe Beginning of Days:



Most of this information is from The Silmarillion. Have you read it?

I have read it, but only once, and too long ago. I should have just read it again, eh? Thank you for summing it up so nicely. That makes a lot of sense. I suppose I had forgotten all that, because I was trying to figure out what about being a Man could possibly be better than being Elfkind. The elves are all gorgeous and young and immortal and wise and all that. But Men have something else--this "gift"--it is a freedom from the world. Scary, I suppose, when you are in the world, because it is unknown. But once you have passed beyond, it could open up so many possibilities. I trust Aragorn and Arwen would be able to build worlds together and be quite happy.

[Findegil]

Just to nit pick a bit: Spirits of Men go to the halls of Mandos, before they leave the world, and some are allowed to wait thier for some time (see the exsample of Beren).

And I would like to add a bit to the quotation of Galadriel, from the same chapter just one paragraph further down:

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

So the fate of Men is certain as long as you trusted in what the Elves told you about their own learinings from the Valar. In contarst the fate of the Elves is unknown at least in the longrun and nneeded 'estel' which is trust in the goodness of Ilúvatar much more than Men.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Just to nit pick a bit: Spirits of Men go to the halls of Mandos, before they leave the world, and some are allowed to wait thier for some time (see the exsample of Beren).

Nit pick appreciated.

Originally Posted by Findegil

And I would like to add a bit to the quotation of Galadriel, from the same chapter just one paragraph further down:So the fate of Men is certain as long as you trusted in what the Elves told you about their own learinings from the Valar. In contarst the fate of the Elves is unknown at least in the longrun and nneeded 'estel' which is trust in the goodness of Ilúvatar much more than Men.

Yes. But I would say that the majority of Men did not know about those learnings, and that many did not believe. And even if they do believe in their minds, it's not a simple thing just to trust that reasoning with one's heart. So Men's fate is certain - for the Valar and those Elves who talked to them,and some very faithful Men. But to most Men the fate of the Elves probably seems much more certain, because the "long run" for Men is much shorter than that of Elves...

[Findegil]

But to most Men the fate of the Elves probably seems much more certain, because the "long run" for Men is much shorter than that of Elves...

True enough from the perspectiv of shortliving Men, but quite diffrent if looked from the elvish perspectiv. In the "Athrabeth Finrod a Andreth" the point is nicely discussed between the two.

Respectfuly
Findegil