LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 3 - Mount Doom

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Frodo failed to destroy the Ring, yes. But he succeeded in doing the task as well as he could possibly do it; he succeeded in his mercy towards Gollum - the same mercy which ultimately allowed the Quest to succeed. Frodo's "failure" on Mt. Doom was not a moral one - he could not have behaved in any other way, so how can he be blamed? Saying he needs forgiveness is saying he can be blamed. If Gollum had not danced off the edge of the cliff and the Ring had not been destroyed, it would not have been Frodo's fault any more than it is his fault for living in an imperfect world. The failure Frodo needs forgiveness for comes afterwards, in thinking that he could have, should have, destroyed the Ring. This is what he needs to reconcile with himself.

An overall good theory there, but forgiveness doesn't just apply to moral failures, it doesn't just apply to sin.

Don't we usually want forgiveness for ANYTHING we've done wrong? Mistakes or accidents, in particular. These are errors, things done wrong, in which we are definitely culpable, things for which we often ask forgiveness. It's not really as if we are SINFUL in mistaking things, or making mistakes, or that an accident was sinful, but we are still the hand responsible, and we still seek forgiveness.

Can Frodo's "need for forgiveness" after Mt. Doom be likened to that?

[davem]

His 'sin' was not in failing to destroy the Ring, it was in affirming its existence - the existence of evil in the world.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hmmmm.....it just occurs to me -- in reading the next chapter "The Field of Cormallen" -- if Frodo really was in need of forgiveness, then why did not Gandalf forgive him? One would think that the White Wizard, particularly now that Sauron is dead and he is free to reveal himself more fully as the Maia that he is, would be able to 'diagnose' Frodo's need for such absolution.

The obvious answer would be that true penance must be sought and asked for, and that Frodo never asks Gandalf to forgive him: but as it's so clear that Frodo is beating himself up for his failure (as the story goes on) and as Gandalf clearly wants to help 'heal' Frodo of his feelings, I would think that a quick conversation in the days after 25 March would have been called for: "I know your feelings, Frodo, but you must not blame yourself. Forgiveness is yours, but first you must learn to forgive yourself" -- or something like that.

I think the fact that Frodo meets -- and spends time with -- all of Middle-Earths real heavyweights without ANY OF THEM talking about forgiveness might be a clue of some kind. I mean, even if Gandalf has 'missed' something here, surely Aragorn, Arwen, Galadriel or Elrond would have picked up on it. The only solution they can arrive at is to send Frodo into the West -- so "I forgive you" is neither not enough or not appropriate...

[Formendacil]

Hmmm... Interesting thoughts.

Maybe the fact of the matter is that Frodo needed to feel forgiveness from someone who he felt had the authority to forgive him. Maybe he didn't feel that forgiveness from a friend would do the job. "You're just saying that because you're my friend..."

Just a thought. I'm no psychologist.

[davem]

Its also interesting that Frodo's deepest wound, & the one most difficult to heal, is self-inflicted.

[Essex]

Davem, you've come closest to how I feel about Frodo at the Cracks of Doom.

It is about that, but its mostly about forgiveness of sins, about mercy unearned & undeserved - Frodo forgives Gollum not because he deserves it, or has turned over a new leaf, but simply as an act of mercy. Frodo also receives forgiveness & mercy for the same reason.

The WHOLE of the Lord of the Rings's Reason (for want of a better word) is delivered here at the Cracks of Doom. Frodo could not (or would not) throw the Ring in. If we look closely at clues Tolkien put in the books earlier, we can see this. No one could give up the Ring at the Sammauth Naur.

So why did the Quest succeed? BECAUSE OF FORGIVENESS AND FINALLY REDEMPTION. (which is one of the bases of Christian Faith by the way)

Frodo forgave Gollum on a number of occasions. He let him live. Even at the end Sam let Gollum live too on the slopes of Mount Doom. WITHOUT THIS FORGIVENESS the Quest would have failed. I put it to you that Tolkien knew this and based the whole of Frodo's Quest on this basic point......Frodo found Redemption (via Gollum) becuase of his forgiveness to him. Without this, Sauron would have won.

Frodo and the whole of Middle Earth was Redeemed becuase of Frodo and Sam's Forgiveness of Gollum.

PS Just imagine if Frodo DID throw the Ring in. Now what a let down and anti climax THAT would have been!!!!!!!

To conclude:

Fact - The Quest was to destroy the Ring.
Fact - The Ring was destroyed
Fact - The Quest was a success

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Point of Order: Frodo never actually forgives Gollum he says that he pities him. These are two different things -- one can feel pity for the criminal whom is being sentenced to death but feel that the sentence is just: "You deserve to die for your crime, but I feel sorry for you insofar as you made bad choices in your life which have led to this".

In the conversation with Gandalf in "Shadow of the Past" Frodo says that Gollum "deserves death" and Gandalf agrees; he goes on to argue that Bilbo was right not to kill Gollum because "he has some part yet to play ere the end" and because the right to end life belongs properly to a higher power. No talk anywhere here of forgiveness or redemption.

So while I agree wholeheartedly that the Quest has succeeded thanks to Frodo's actions with Gollum, I think it's pretty clear that Frodo has decided that he doesn't have the right to kill Gollum, even though he may "deserve death" and not because he's forgiven him. That having been said, it's hard to see the drama enacted at the Crack of Doom as being about forgiveness; rather, it's about Pity.