LOTR Survivor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Anguirel · 10-12-2005, 06:45 AM

Lalaith, I too am a firm Cavalier. I believe Gimli qualifies as one, in the end.

Looks aren't everything. Charles II himself admitted "God's fish, I am an ugly fellow!" What matters is culture, chivalry, courtesy, wit. Gimli possesses these in unusual abundance.

He sings the song of Durin. He gallantly requests three of Galadriel's hairs; in the game of wooing he is strides ahead of the cold, formal Aragorn, and only slightly behind Faramir.

He knows the chivalrous choice is to rescue Merry and Pippin. He declines to sing of the East, showing great tact. Once in Rohan, he behaves with proper hauteur but is not too strict about grudges. He saves Eomer's life despite their quarrel. He takes part in a "joust" with Master Elf.

He conquers his fears and passes the Paths of the Dead with supreme knightly courage. And then there is his final, glorious, romantic altercation with Eomer-

(paraphrasing) "You have chosen the evening. But I prefer the morning, and I fear it may soon pass."

Well, it did, in the person of Lady Galadriel, but Gimli's still here, and I exhort that you vote for him. Sir Gimli-knight, gallant, cavalier, paragon of chivalry and oldie courtesie!

mormegil · 10-12-2005, 07:09 AM

I wouldn't say Gimli conquered the paths of the dead. More accurate would be to say that he was so shamed that he was more or less forced to do it. And all this talk of Gimli forging Elf/Dwarf relationships is a misrepresentation of the actual facts. The truth is, it was Galadriel that began the reforging and Gimli was simply the witless dwarf who was caught under her enchantment

Anguirel · 10-12-2005, 07:14 AM

I didn't say he conquered the Paths of the Dead either. I said he conquered his fears, a far more important achievement. Who showed the greater courage-Aragorn, who knew he could not be touched, or Gimli, who had no such assurance?

And your comment about Galadriel is rather rich in light of your vote for her, driving her off the island. Besides, it was clearly Gimli who took the initiative in requesting the hairs and in becoming a battle brother of Legolas. Since Legolas stayed into the Fourth Age and Galadriel didn't, this friendship did far more for Elf-Dwarf harmony than any manipulation you can attribute to Galadriel.

Lalaith · 10-12-2005, 07:58 AM

I will not dispute you, Anguirel, over Gimli's virtues - they make him a very worthy runner-up.

But surely Merry, whose very name is the personification of this contest's arena of Mirth, is a more deserving overall champion.

Vote for the Laughing Cavalier!

Anguirel · 10-12-2005, 08:16 AM

The problem with Merry as Cavalier is he lacks the crucial element of Royalist romanticism. Namely, his ending is prosaic but happy.

Gimli, on the other hand, ends up following a strange people in resignation and defeat in pursuit of a final sight of an unattainable love. Sigh.

Hence, Gimli is the Cavalier, Merry the burlesque Restoration hero. And I know which one I inevitably prefer.

If you profess Romanticism, if you are caught into Tolkien because of the loss, the Long Defeat, the gallant but helpless defiance and delaying of the inevitable with unimpeachable bravery...if you surge with excitement at "he died with the Dawn in his eyes..."

Then Gimli is your man, or rather Dwarf. Vote accordingly!

EDIT: Note for reader's interest-the man portrayed in the painting "The Laughing Cavalier" is neither laughing nor a Cavalier!

It's rather like the Holy Roman Empire...

Alcarillo · 10-12-2005, 08:28 AM

++Gimli

For being a Cavalier! And Anguirel has convinced me.

Lalaith · 10-12-2005, 08:35 AM

Ok, I'm talking mostly to the girls now.

What does Gimli actually *do* for his beloved lady? How exactly does he serve her, in any practical sense? He's all talk and no trousers. We all know the type.
Compare this to Merry:

Quote:

He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate. At least she should not die alone, unaided.

I'm sorry, no contest.

Anguirel · 10-12-2005, 08:35 AM

Hama-4
Merry-4
Gimli-4

Hmmm. It's, er, quite close...

EDIT: Lalaith, you skirted the Romanticism point! Anyway, because Gimli carries Galadriel's favour, all his subsequent valiant deeds count as in her service-and are in her service, as they are in the service of all the Free Peoples.

Galadriel's message sent after Gimli, calling him Lockbearer, shows she is aware and appreciative of his valour. Note his joyous reaction to this.

In more practical tems, Gimli twice challenges the far larger and probably more powerful Eomer over Galadriel's beauty and virtue, defending her from any insult. Let me sum up this dutiful service-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Gimli the Chivalrous

Then I must go for my axe.

The clincher-Merry commits a crime which no true Romantic or hopelessly valiant Cavalier would stoop to. He marries and settles down!

10-12-2005, 06:45 AM	#1
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Lalaith, I too am a firm Cavalier. I believe Gimli qualifies as one, in the end. Looks aren't everything. Charles II himself admitted "God's fish, I am an ugly fellow!" What matters is culture, chivalry, courtesy, wit. Gimli possesses these in unusual abundance. He sings the song of Durin. He gallantly requests three of Galadriel's hairs; in the game of wooing he is strides ahead of the cold, formal Aragorn, and only slightly behind Faramir. He knows the chivalrous choice is to rescue Merry and Pippin. He declines to sing of the East, showing great tact. Once in Rohan, he behaves with proper hauteur but is not too strict about grudges. He saves Eomer's life despite their quarrel. He takes part in a "joust" with Master Elf. He conquers his fears and passes the Paths of the Dead with supreme knightly courage. And then there is his final, glorious, romantic altercation with Eomer- (paraphrasing) "You have chosen the evening. But I prefer the morning, and I fear it may soon pass." Well, it did, in the person of Lady Galadriel, but Gimli's still here, and I exhort that you vote for him. Sir Gimli-knight, gallant, cavalier, paragon of chivalry and oldie courtesie! __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-12-2005, 07:09 AM	#2
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	I wouldn't say Gimli conquered the paths of the dead. More accurate would be to say that he was so shamed that he was more or less forced to do it. And all this talk of Gimli forging Elf/Dwarf relationships is a misrepresentation of the actual facts. The truth is, it was Galadriel that began the reforging and Gimli was simply the witless dwarf who was caught under her enchantment __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

10-12-2005, 07:14 AM	#3
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	I didn't say he conquered the Paths of the Dead either. I said he conquered his fears, a far more important achievement. Who showed the greater courage-Aragorn, who knew he could not be touched, or Gimli, who had no such assurance? And your comment about Galadriel is rather rich in light of your vote for her, driving her off the island. Besides, it was clearly Gimli who took the initiative in requesting the hairs and in becoming a battle brother of Legolas. Since Legolas stayed into the Fourth Age and Galadriel didn't, this friendship did far more for Elf-Dwarf harmony than any manipulation you can attribute to Galadriel. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-12-2005, 07:58 AM	#4
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	I will not dispute you, Anguirel, over Gimli's virtues - they make him a very worthy runner-up. But surely Merry, whose very name is the personification of this contest's arena of Mirth, is a more deserving overall champion. Vote for the Laughing Cavalier! __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

10-12-2005, 08:16 AM	#5
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	The problem with Merry as Cavalier is he lacks the crucial element of Royalist romanticism. Namely, his ending is prosaic but happy. Gimli, on the other hand, ends up following a strange people in resignation and defeat in pursuit of a final sight of an unattainable love. Sigh. Hence, Gimli is the Cavalier, Merry the burlesque Restoration hero. And I know which one I inevitably prefer. If you profess Romanticism, if you are caught into Tolkien because of the loss, the Long Defeat, the gallant but helpless defiance and delaying of the inevitable with unimpeachable bravery...if you surge with excitement at "he died with the Dawn in his eyes..." Then Gimli is your man, or rather Dwarf. Vote accordingly! EDIT: Note for reader's interest-the man portrayed in the painting "The Laughing Cavalier" is neither laughing nor a Cavalier! It's rather like the Holy Roman Empire... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso Last edited by Anguirel; 10-12-2005 at 08:33 AM.

10-12-2005, 08:28 AM	#6
Alcarillo Shadow of the Past Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Minas Mor-go Posts: 1,007	++Gimli For being a Cavalier! And Anguirel has convinced me.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode